debate what? those 9 points?
[20:12:41] <Ganneff> ok, what happens now is the debate. we take the 9 points and decide on each if "bids are the same / better / worse" than others. ie -1/0/+1. in the end this should leave us with a winner.
[20:12:47] <marga> h01ger: yes, point by point.
[20:12:53] <marga> So, 1 - "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
[20:12:55] <Ganneff> any questions?
[20:13:06] <Ganneff> #topic 1 - # "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
[20:13:09] <moray> for the travel part, see http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/SampleTravelCosts
[20:13:33] <marga> The cheapest regarding food+lodging is Quito.
[20:13:41] <moray> the main attendee cost is travel, main cost to DebConf/sponsors tends to be accommodation+food
[20:14:07] <marga> NYC/BOS are very similar regarding travel and food+accom
[20:14:19] <marga> Quito is quite more expensive regarding travel
[20:14:20] <Ganneff> so, travel wise the us is better than UIO, local costs UIO better than the US
[20:14:26] <moray> NYC wins marginally over Boston on travel from Europe/US
[20:14:39] <moray> but as someone said, people can always fly to NY and take the bus
[20:14:46] <moray> (to get to Boston)
[20:14:53] <marga> Yes, I think we should consider them equal on that point.
[20:15:03] <Ganneff> are BOS/NYC ok with that?
[20:15:04] <bureado_UIO> May I point out something about travel costs?
[20:15:15] <marga> bureado_UIO: sure, go ahead.
[20:15:25] <bureado_UIO> We got cheaper prices for flights than those in the SampleTravelCosts wikipage. Sometimes around 600 USD less.
[20:15:27] <Ganneff> bureado_UIO: yes, this is an open discussion, with the goal of having all bids agree
[20:15:31] <MrBeige_NYC> (note that boston/nyc bus works both ways)
[20:15:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff, marga: we're ok with it, but just realize that the bus does take 4-5 hours and so does add meaningfully to travel time
[20:15:36] * h01ger is undecided who wins here, i think they are equal
[20:15:41] <ari_BOS> Ganneff: i mean, it is 4-5 hours from nyc to boston, but from a cost perspective they would be equal
[20:15:42] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff, marga: (and yes is both directions)
[20:15:48] <bureado_UIO> For example MAD-UIO via BOG, 893 USD vs. 1450 in the wikipage.
[20:15:59] <ari_BOS> and more than an hour to the bus from an NYC-area airport
[20:16:02] <Hydroxide_NYC> bureado_UIO: look at the bottom, there are cheaper numbers there
[20:16:05] <bureado_UIO> Or 376 USD MIA-BOG vs. 652 NYC-BOG
[20:16:12] <ari_BOS> but it's pretty straightforward
[20:16:32] <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide_NYC: Sure, that's why we proposed May-June as a nice time window.
[20:16:58] <moray> bureado_UIO: if you look harder, you can get much cheaper figures for the US places too, at least from Europe, by waiting for some special offer
[20:17:17] <bureado_UIO> moray: Sure, I don't argue that
[20:17:53] <Ganneff> ok. UIO will be a little more expensive at least than NYC/BOS, thats fore sure i think, as NYC has LOTSA flights. how much its more, is not too relevant.
[20:18:06] * h01ger thinks its clear that flights are more expensive to quito, but that quito is cheaper on housing+food. and that our budget main prio is not flight travelspsonsorship
[20:18:06] <bureado_UIO> Ok.
[20:18:32] <moray> h01ger: sure, it's only relevant for the "attendees" part of the topic
[20:18:49] <h01ger> what about the sponsors part?
[20:18:50] <Hydroxide_NYC> yeah, the topic includes attendees and sponsors
[20:18:53] <marga> h01ger: yes, but it's important that attendees can attend. That was the week point for DC8. Too many people couldn't attend due to flight prices.
[20:18:59] <Ganneff> as we do travel money on a "best we have" basis, a little more focus on the average cost, we can probably keep this point equal for now?
[20:19:08] <Ganneff> we can always revisit certain topics if we have a tie later
[20:19:12] * Hydroxide_NYC is ok with equal for this one
[20:19:26] <Roliverio_UIO> for being expensive for US/EU also they are the cheapest for LatAm Countries.
[20:19:37] <Roliverio_UIO> and the other way around xD.
[20:19:40] <Ganneff> is BOS and UIO also ok with having this equal for now?
[20:19:46] <bureado_UIO> Yes.
[20:20:08] <Ganneff> ari_BOS, mako_BOS: you too?
[20:20:22] <ari_BOS> most people would be coming from US/EU, no?
[20:20:37] <marga> ari_BOS: sure, yes.
[20:20:38] <Ganneff> majority
[20:20:49] <moray> ari_BOS: Ganneff's suggestion is that the cheaper local costs balance the travel
[20:21:16] <moray> (I don't know if that's precisely true without more accurate local budget and travel figures)
[20:21:21] <Ganneff> at least for now.
[20:21:23] <ari_BOS> i'm pretty sure that doesn't work out, but someone would have to do the math
[20:21:24] <h01ger> ari_BOS, we dont have to cover travel, but we have to cover food
[20:21:39] <ari_BOS> so i guess i'm fine with it until someone actually does the calculations
[20:21:44] * mako_BOS nods
[20:21:47] <Ganneff> thanks
[20:21:50] <Ganneff> #topic 2 - strong, mature, experienced local team
[20:23:12] <marga> So, I think it's clear that Quito is weaker here.
[20:23:16] <bureado_UIO> Quito's local team is small, yet very organized, and there's people from nearby countries helping or willing to help out. We do believe, of course, that bids like BOS have stronger, older, more mature local teams.
[20:23:27] <bureado_UIO> With longer beards.
[20:23:31] <marga> :)
[20:23:33] <Roliverio_UIO> heh.
[20:23:45] <ari_BOS> we do have some pretty awesome beards
[20:23:47] <Ganneff> i think UIO has less people that had helped with debconf than NYC
[20:23:48] <h01ger> hehe
[20:23:51] <ari_BOS> they grow on us
[20:24:01] <bureado_UIO> Ganneff: Yes, that's also true.
[20:24:16] <Ganneff> so, how between nyc/bos
[20:24:22] <moray> Ganneff: it's probably also this point where Quito lose out for only getting organised at the last moment :)
[20:24:24] <bureado_UIO> (wrt NYC and BOS equally,dunno between those two)
[20:24:43] <Ganneff> nyc has at least Hydroxide_NYC who was in sponsorship
[20:24:54] <ari_BOS> it seems like nyc and bos are equal in active local team, but we may have an advantage on sheer number of people who would help
[20:24:56] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: schultmc is also on our localteam and was in dc8 sponsorship
[20:24:59] <bureado_UIO> moray: Well, we've provided explanations when requested, though yes, it was late.
[20:25:08] <Ganneff> bos has mako as a "i attend many debconfs, unless i marry"
[20:25:11] * h01ger nods ari (sheer number)
[20:25:14] <marga> Uhm, the distance between BOS and NYC is similar to the distance between Buenos Aires and MDQ... So, wouldn't NYC people act as local team for BOS and viceversa?
[20:25:18] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: (e.g. schultmc prepared our original presnetation pdf)
[20:25:22] <mako_BOS> this is true :)
[20:25:24] <MrBeige_NYC> ftr, i've identified one other debian-active grad student who can help out
[20:25:35] * h01ger hopes what marga said is true
[20:25:45] <Hydroxide_NYC> marga: certainly several of us in NYC would help out BOS if they win, and have heard some of BOS express the same about NYC
[20:25:45] <Ganneff> i think we can give a + to both, nyc and bos here?
[20:25:46] <mako_BOS> for the record, i am not planning a marriage for next summer
[20:25:52] <moray> ari_BOS: there's been the impression that you've personally done a big proportion of the work so far, is that right?
[20:25:56] * Hydroxide_NYC grins at mako_BOS
[20:26:05] <Ganneff> mako_BOS: you say now.
[20:26:19] <ari_BOS> moray: i've done the bulk of the coordination, yes
[20:26:34] <ari_BOS> but the people at MIT also had a lot to do
[20:26:37] <moray> ari_BOS: but you're sure you'd get layabouts like mako actually working later on? ;)
[20:26:46] <Ganneff> ok. so are you ok with a - for UIO, a + for both BOS/NYC on this topic?
[20:26:50] <ari_BOS> moray: i'm counting on mako at least convincing people to come :)
[20:27:08] <ari_BOS> even if some volunteers don't pan out, there are still plenty in the wings
[20:27:16] <ari_BOS> and i don't plan on going anywhere in the next two years
[20:27:31] <moray> right, just trying to drive wedges between small differences on this point
[20:27:41] <marga> You definitely need more than 2 _dependable_ people to organize a DebConf.
[20:27:45] <ari_BOS> absolutely
[20:27:52] <mako_BOS> mika's been putting in a bunch of time on this as well as well
[20:28:05] <MrBeige_NYC> we have a lot of people in our #debconf-nyc channel participating in decisions
[20:28:08] <moray> (NYC have more visibly had a group of people working together)
[20:28:10] <marga> But, as I said, I do hope that NYC people would help BOS and BOS people would help NYC. So, that evens both of you.
[20:28:12] <Hydroxide_NYC> and in NYC, we've had good effort from me, MrBeige_NYC, Clint, bgupta, etc
[20:28:21] <Hydroxide_NYC> but, yes, I agree with marga too
[20:28:37] <h01ger> next topic is "good working spaces", fwiw
[20:28:37] <mako_BOS> (she's a package maintainer, the person i married, as is more dependable than myself quite honestly)
[20:28:37] <Ganneff> so, -1 UIO, +1 BOS/NYC?
[20:28:52] <marga> Ganneff: yes, next
[20:28:57] <h01ger> yes
[20:29:00] <Ganneff> #topic 3 - good working spaces
[20:29:37] <moray> does someone want to propose something here?
[20:30:03] <ari_BOS> mit is awesome? :)
[20:30:12] * h01ger thinks the winner is MIT, but i'm not sure i want this to be counted 0, 0, +1
[20:30:19] <MrBeige_NYC> despite what the "weaknesses" may show, we have a large number of options
[20:30:22] <Ganneff> well. this partly includes "have to move away for the night".
[20:30:31] <MrBeige_NYC> with the primary focus (SEAS rooms) able to reserve immediately
[20:30:37] <Ganneff> us people dislike this.
[20:30:43] <Ganneff> (not US, us) :)
[20:30:50] <Hydroxide_NYC> we can make a single place being 24/7 hackspace if we want, if we use the debit card option for the food
[20:30:56] <Hydroxide_NYC> as discussed earlier in #dc10-talk
[20:31:06] <MrBeige_NYC> with a large number of backup rooms to get later
[20:31:08] <Hydroxide_NYC> yes
[20:31:10] <moray> the Columbia rooms should be pretty much equal to MIT?
[20:31:16] <moray> or is there a useful difference?
[20:31:22] <moray> I expect MIT beats the HI rooms
[20:31:35] <MrBeige_NYC> I don't actually know about the details of the MIT rooms to be able to compare well enough
[20:31:46] <MrBeige_NYC> in terms of reservation procedures, certainty of getting them, etc
[20:31:55] <Hydroxide_NYC> moray: I'd guess that's correct. and we're not really planning to use HI except for overflow and/or lodging
[20:31:56] <ari_BOS> we can reserve rooms ASAP
[20:31:57] <MrBeige_NYC> we have four rooms which we can for sure have 24/7 exclusive access for us
[20:32:04] <ari_BOS> with enough room for everybody
[20:32:13] <ari_BOS> but the ideal building will not be open for reservation until january
[20:32:16] <moray> MIT were also proposing using the student centre stuff, which I'd expect are less high quality rooms than the Stata Centre etc.?
[20:32:18] <MrBeige_NYC> which is enough for talks+BOF+(eating|hackspace)
[20:32:21] <Ganneff> what was UIO 24x7 option again?
[20:32:27] <bureado_UIO> Plan B
[20:32:29] <bureado_UIO> Hotel Sebastián
[20:32:30] <MrBeige_NYC> and we *can* have 24/7 on campus
[20:32:31] <bureado_UIO> In La Mariscal
[20:32:32] <ari_BOS> moray: they're not as nice, but still provide plenty of tables/chairs/power/networking
[20:32:45] <ari_BOS> but is much closer to 24x7 food
[20:32:48] <MrBeige_NYC> (we want to have 24/7 on campus)
[20:32:54] <bureado_UIO> One 500-people room, other 4 rooms for talks, 100 people could be hosted in the same hotel, food in the same place, and the rest of the people in nearby (less than two blocks) hotels.
[20:33:01] <Ganneff> bureado_UIO: to not lose out, this should be plan A.... imo at least.
[20:33:11] * h01ger nods Ganneff
[20:33:15] <Ganneff> good working space IMO includes not having to move at a certain time.
[20:33:20] <h01ger> yes
[20:33:22] <Ganneff> it was annoying in EDI
[20:33:28] <marga> ari_BOS: can you reserve the non-ideal and then unreserve them when the ideal becomes available?
[20:33:35] <Ganneff> was great in MDQ
[20:33:45] <MrBeige_NYC> I don't think our uncertainty of what we get is that much greater than MIT's
[20:33:48] <bureado_UIO> Ganneff: Yes, that has been pointed out in dc10-talk, our only concern was connectivity and quietness of the place, but connectivity can be sorted out and quietness is OK for sleeping, for the rest I think we actually can contriute to loudness.
[20:33:49] <ari_BOS> marga: yes.
[20:33:51] <MrBeige_NYC> we're just more open about it
[20:33:54] <mako_BOS> marga: yes. there will cutoff dates and such, but we can do that
[20:34:06] <h01ger> mexico was also fine
[20:34:09] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: if the team as a whole feels that way, then we can do the 24/7 hackspace in the cafeteria (exclusively for us) and use the debit cards for food like what mit is planning
[20:34:47] <Ganneff> ok. turns out this will be pretty equal too?
[20:35:13] <Ganneff> if we assume PLAN B for UIO and cafeteria for NYC?
[20:35:24] <moray> if Quito commit themselves to a "one location" plan
[20:35:26] <bureado_UIO> Yes. We truly think we'll have great working spaces.
[20:35:31] <Hydroxide_NYC> sure.
[20:35:49] <Ganneff> ok. lets leave it at equal for now, we can revisit this if we need to break a tie
[20:35:58] <moray> bureado_UIO: but your energy has appeared focused on the "two places plus buses" thing
[20:36:03] <Ganneff> #topic 4 excellent network connectivity
[20:36:12] <Ganneff> i bet MIT wins
[20:36:20] <Ganneff> followed by NYC by UIO
[20:36:24] <h01ger> yes
[20:36:24] <moray> for practical purposes MIT=Columbia
[20:36:24] <ari_BOS> yeah...
[20:36:25] <marga> My words
[20:36:26] <bureado_UIO> moray: That was the original proposal (last meeting, that's why it's in the budget draft)
[20:36:36] <Hydroxide_NYC> MIT and Columbia both have great internet connectivity - the difference between MIT and Columbia doesn't matter for DebConf purposes
[20:36:38] <mako_BOS> moray: that is probably *not* true
[20:36:44] <MrBeige_NYC> for practical purposes, nyc and boston will serve debconf's purposes equally
[20:36:50] <moray> mako_BOS: how not?
[20:36:57] <Hydroxide_NYC> we've checked with the central IT department
[20:36:58] <ari_BOS> mako and mika have been at both columbia and MIT
[20:37:03] <h01ger> MrBeige, even with wireless?
[20:37:06] <mako_BOS> as a person off the street, mit's network is fully open after a 10 minute registration and then unfiltered and unfirewalled
[20:37:27] <MrBeige_NYC> wireless does have public IPs
[20:37:31] <Ganneff> practical it will be pretty on both US based ones. UIO just has problems cos its in LatAM, they dont have that much connection.
[20:37:34] <MrBeige_NYC> (for the CUIT-managed wireless)
[20:37:39] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: columbia's wifi network is fully open without a 10 minute registration
[20:37:40] <mako_BOS> i've never had an easy time getting on columbia's network as an outsider (we used to live on campus when mika was a graduate student and i never had routine access). maybe things have changed since then
[20:37:49] <mako_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: ok, that's different than when i lived there then
[20:37:51] <MrBeige_NYC> CUIT wireless requires no authentication
[20:37:54] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: it has. I've used my unaffiliated laptop on the columbia network. it's very easy.
[20:38:02] <bureado_UIO> I think BOS=NYC for our purposes... we've managed with not-that-good connectivity.
[20:38:16] <moray> mako_BOS: I think we can assume the bids will deal with things so we won't be classed as "outsiders"
[20:38:30] <Ganneff> im fine with bos=NYC=1, uio=0, you too?
[20:38:33] <bureado_UIO> UIOs network would be our own, of course.
[20:38:39] <bureado_UIO> Not shaped, not firewalled et al.
[20:38:41] <bureado_UIO> Ok.
[20:38:46] <MrBeige_NYC> mako_BOS: what department was this wireless through ?
[20:38:51] <Hydroxide_NYC> I'm fine with that.
[20:39:00] <Ganneff> bos ok too with the above?
[20:39:20] <MrBeige_NYC> mako_BOS: when I was here on a visit before I joined, I had unauthenticated access, and when Hydroxide_NYC was here he got on with no authentication in the cafeteria
[20:39:40] <Hydroxide_NYC> (this is in the building we'd be based in)
[20:39:43] <Ganneff> mako/ari?
[20:39:46] <ari_BOS> what about CU's wireless coverage?
[20:40:00] <Ganneff> that above what nyc has?
[20:40:11] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: this was a couple years ago. i'm happy to assume my experience is out of date
[20:40:16] <MrBeige_NYC> CU's wireless is good in public places and outside
[20:40:27] <ari_BOS> like, does every room we're looking at & dorm have enough coverage?
[20:40:35] <MrBeige_NYC> all dorms would have ethernet
[20:40:45] <MrBeige_NYC> all the rooms we would use for venues would have converage
[20:40:47] <Ganneff> hrm.
[20:40:47] <h01ger> so. BOS +1, NYC +1, UIO -1. or?
[20:41:01] <Hydroxide_NYC> some dorms would also have coverage for wireless
[20:41:06] <MrBeige_NYC> and I should also point out that we do have support of a high-level CUIT manager
[20:41:10] <bureado_UIO> I don't think we would get -1 connectivity for UIO...
[20:41:17] <Ganneff> h01ger: i still wait on the ack from bos for that, but placed uio at 0
[20:41:28] <bureado_UIO> We will get our own connectivity, not shared with anyone else
[20:41:29] <MrBeige_NYC> his comments are helpful, and made it clear that he wanted this and would help us
[20:41:48] <ari_BOS> i'm not entirely convinced mit and CU are equivalent for a debconf network setup
[20:41:51] <bureado_UIO> And we can fiddle with it as we please, so the only problem is costs and we already have 3000 USD committed for this...
[20:42:02] <Ganneff> ari_BOS: you rate mit higher?
[20:42:03] <mako_BOS> having used both as my primary network for at least a year or so, i'm hesitant to say they are equal
[20:42:06] <Hydroxide_NYC> he even asked if we needed multicast and IPv6 so that he'd have an excuse to implement it - this is an example that they're clearly willing to do network stuff just for us
[20:42:14] <ari_BOS> Ganneff: yes
[20:42:15] <h01ger> ari_BOS, /me neither but as we dont have a finegrained scale, i would put both at +1
[20:42:21] <Ganneff> bureado_UIO: we rate you as 0, that should work. you cant compete with the us, that much is clear
[20:42:33] <bureado_UIO> I think +1, +1, 0 is quite fair, as I don't know whether BOS or NYC will fit our purposes best but of course it will be cheaper and faster.
[20:42:36] * h01ger agrees that he's not fully sure if UIO is 0 or -1
[20:42:36] <MrBeige_NYC> mako_BOS: where did you use CU's as your primany network ?
[20:42:38] <Ganneff> h01ger: we can go +1 bos, 0 nyc.
[20:42:40] <MrBeige_NYC> mako_BOS: what location ?
[20:42:49] <Ganneff> thats a scale for "bos is above nyc" that works.
[20:42:57] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: when i lived in columbia housing when my wife did a masters there 3 years ago
[20:43:01] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: I rate mit as higher for theoretical purposes but equal to columbia for practical purposes, including debconf. we specifically talked about our usage patterns with them
[20:43:10] <ari_BOS> also note that HI would definitely not be equivalent to MIT
[20:43:12] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: and lots of researchers use more than we would
[20:43:20] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: both in the washington heights and morningside campuses
[20:43:28] <h01ger> +1 bos, 0 nyc, -1 oio might make sense. though i would prefer +10 bos, +9 nyc and +3 for oui, or such ;)
[20:43:33] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: right. we're not planning to host the conference there except for some lodging. just consider it equivalent to the hotels/hostels
[20:43:36] <MrBeige_NYC> mako_BOS: so not the academic networks ?
[20:43:37] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: in your bid
[20:43:38] <moray> Ganneff: in my view while MIT may be better, it's not one point of the scale better, maybe 10%
[20:43:48] <Ganneff> ok.
[20:43:50] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: it's the same network
[20:43:59] <mako_BOS> moray: yeah, i think that's right
[20:44:04] <MrBeige_NYC> not necessarily same authentication, are are we beyond that?
[20:44:05] <ari_BOS> +1.1? :)
[20:44:16] <mako_BOS> they are both major us research university networks
[20:44:20] <Ganneff> lets break the numbering scheme here, or we wont ever end it.
[20:44:30] <marga> Yeah, +1 BOS, +0.8 NYC, 0 UIO
[20:44:30] <MrBeige_NYC> Ganneff: I can go with that
[20:44:46] <Hydroxide_NYC> ok
[20:44:47] <mako_BOS> that said, i've never found a group of network admins who as unix savvy, responsive, and flexible as mit
[20:44:47] <MrBeige_NYC> for move-along sake
[20:44:52] <mako_BOS> great :)
[20:44:52] <marga> Ganneff: ok, what do you propose?
[20:45:13] <moray> ari_BOS suggested 1.1, seems fair enough...
[20:45:17] <Ganneff> i would take +2 bos, +1 nyc, 0 uio. but 0.5 is also nice.
[20:45:24] <Ganneff> it doesnt mean 50%, its just higher.
[20:45:36] <MrBeige_NYC> I think nyc should be at least +1 (or more), since it is better than most past debconfs
[20:45:41] <moray> Ganneff: sure, depends what's going to happen to these numbers in the end
[20:45:47] <ari_BOS> i agree with MrBeige_NYC on that part
[20:45:57] <Hydroxide_NYC> so +1.1, +1, +0?
[20:45:59] <MrBeige_NYC> +1.5, +2 ?
[20:46:06] <Ganneff> ok. fine. nyc +1, bos +1.5, uio 0
[20:46:08] <MrBeige_NYC> er, other way around, you know what I mean
[20:46:09] <Hydroxide_NYC> hehe
[20:46:11] <Ganneff> can you live with it?
[20:46:14] * Hydroxide_NYC agrees to Ganneff's numbers
[20:46:16] <Hydroxide_NYC> yeesh :)
[20:46:16] <h01ger> if we start with that now, i think we should talk about #3 again... :)
[20:46:21] <ari_BOS> mit also has a security mirror on campus ;)
[20:46:21] <MrBeige_NYC> agreed
[20:46:22] <MrBeige_NYC> heh
[20:46:25] <marga> let's move on.
[20:46:27] <ari_BOS> ok
[20:46:28] <bureado_UIO> ok
[20:46:29] <h01ger> Ganneff, do you keep the numbers somewhere public atm?
[20:46:33] <mako_BOS> despite sending us down this road, i think this is slightly ridiculous so i'm ok with any of those :)
[20:46:34] <Ganneff> h01ger: shutup. :)
[20:46:36] <Ganneff> h01ger: on my pc
[20:46:46] <h01ger> :/
[20:46:46] <Ganneff> #topic quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
[20:46:56] <Ganneff> #topic 5 - quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
[20:47:03] <bureado_UIO> Atta topic :D
[20:47:12] <moray> are we assuming Quito give up on the bus link option?
[20:47:16] <bureado_UIO> moray: Yes.
[20:47:29] <moray> (as they do much better here if we're in the city)
[20:48:02] <bureado_UIO> So, La Mariscal is a major food district in Quito. In a two-three square block area, you can find coffees, indian, southwest, mexican, italian, spanish... and of course vegan and vegetarian.
[20:48:12] <mako_BOS> what does this mean for our plan to serve miniscule portions of extroardinary delicious food? ;)
[20:48:19] <Roliverio_UIO> and cheap. :D
[20:48:22] <bureado_UIO> Food is very cheap here. Actually I've only paid 'international' prices on a TGI Friday' s
[20:48:24] <h01ger> all +1 ?
[20:48:35] <ari_BOS> do we count tgi friday's as food
[20:48:39] <moray> no
[20:48:40] <Roliverio_UIO> ari_BOS: some do.
[20:48:41] <Roliverio_UIO> xD
[20:48:42] <Ganneff> i think we can get FAT everywhere.
[20:48:42] <bureado_UIO> lol
[20:48:57] <ari_BOS> fwiw i wasn't counting fast food as "food" in our calculations
[20:48:59] <Hydroxide_NYC> in NYC, we can do conference-sponsored debit cards that allow eating at some local restaurants, or on-campus, or both, plus there are lots of bars and food stores/restaurants open LATE LATE LATE
[20:49:00] <marga> Yes, I think it's even for everybody.
[20:49:03] <moray> so if Quito changed, all the options are now "in the middle of a big city"
[20:49:12] <moray> so they should all be about equal really
[20:49:13] <MrBeige_NYC> and CLOSE CLOSE CLOSE
[20:49:24] <bureado_UIO> moray: The original one was also in the middle of a big city (3 Km. three bus stations) but yes, I hear you.
[20:49:25] <ari_BOS> how cheap is food outside of the venue by columbia?
[20:49:37] <moray> maybe Quito food and drink will be cheaper
[20:49:37] <marga> Hydroxide_NYC: BOS has the debit card option too.
[20:49:38] <Ganneff> ok. 1 for everyone i read, are the bids ok with that?
[20:49:47] <Hydroxide_NYC> marga: yes, I know.
[20:50:09] <MrBeige_NYC> i'm not sure nyc is equal to others
[20:50:12] <moray> and in the US they have some stupid thing of tipping people who serve drinks at bars per drink...
[20:50:20] <bureado_UIO> Ganneff: Yes, since we already discussed affordability.
[20:50:30] <ari_BOS> about $1/drink
[20:50:40] <mako_BOS> ari_BOS: food in the morningside outside of columbia will be kind of expensive and not in as much variety as one would expect. nyc has better food, but it's not at 116th street
[20:50:42] <Ganneff> yes, this topic doesnt meantion the price. doesnt mean people can drag it into the discussion... :)
[20:50:45] <MrBeige_NYC> have you checked out the nyc area map ?
[20:51:13] <Hydroxide_NYC> there's lots of cheap food. but I see this as another case where we're going to go around and around forever like the connection thing
[20:51:23] <Ganneff> its hard to decide, yes.
[20:51:37] <Hydroxide_NYC> I think we should just say +1 for everyone on the food even though I think we have an advantage here.
[20:51:45] <Ganneff> but the goal is to get us all to agree on one thing in the end.
[20:51:46] <MrBeige_NYC> I guess as long as people agree nyc has lots of close, latent options for people
[20:51:53] <mako_BOS> i think that's right. in both cases you can each cheaply and have some variety if you eat "like a student"
[20:51:58] <Roliverio_UIO> well. on the bright side we don't tip on a per drink basis.
[20:52:02] <Hydroxide_NYC> marga: yeah
[20:52:06] <MrBeige_NYC> traveling slightly north/south to get away from the student-centered food
[20:52:12] <Hydroxide_NYC> err, mako_BOS: yeah
[20:52:13] <MrBeige_NYC> traveling = walk 3 minutes
[20:52:31] <ari_BOS> how much is beer in uio?
[20:52:42] <ari_BOS> sorry, i brought up cost again
[20:53:05] <ari_BOS> how close are pubs to the proposed venues in uio?
[20:53:11] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: Like, 43 cents.
[20:53:36] <bureado_UIO> I don't drink that much, though.
[20:53:52] <Ganneff> now. we will get lots and probably good food everywhere, not too far away from the venue. how to decide who wins (or if its equal)? pure amount of restaurants? amount of different diets (vegan or worse anyone?) how much sorts of beer?
[20:54:16] <Hydroxide_NYC> we do have more bars/restaurants open late, more vegan/vegetarian-friendly, etc
[20:54:18] <marga> From the talk on #dc10-talk, it seems it should be 1.5 NYC, 1 BOS, 1 UIO
[20:54:41] <Ganneff> hrm. opening times could be a good thing, yes.
[20:54:42] <MrBeige_NYC> further consider all the ethnic food available
[20:54:53] <marga> Do bids agree with the proposed numbers?
[20:54:53] <Ganneff> some people (hello .ar) are used to eat in the night. instead of normal times
[20:54:54] <Ganneff> :)
[20:54:55] <MrBeige_NYC> some further, some not necessarily further
[20:55:03] * Hydroxide_NYC is ok with 1.5/1/1
[20:55:07] <MrBeige_NYC> eating in the middle of teh night is fine here
[20:55:13] <ari_BOS> as is here
[20:55:29] <MrBeige_NYC> for two new year's eves, i've gotten food around or after midnight in my neighborhood
[20:55:37] <Roliverio_UIO> i think we should be equal (even taking into account costs)
[20:55:37] <Ganneff> bos, uio: prposed numbers from marga ok?
[20:55:38] * h01ger is not convinced nyc is better
[20:55:45] <bureado_UIO> I'd like to revisit point #1 again then, as per affordability.
[20:55:52] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: your own page says "many restaurants are open past 21:00" and "most bars/pubs open until 02:00"
[20:55:53] <h01ger> i think they are all good
[20:55:54] <bureado_UIO> I've been to NYC and I don't think it's 1.5 over UIO.
[20:56:02] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: those are way earlier than in NYC
[20:56:17] <bureado_UIO> I've found NYC expensive (and as a venezuelan I find UIO extremely cheap)
[20:56:20] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: that doesn't mean there's nothing open later
[20:56:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: yeah, but the number of options is larger in NYC.
[20:56:33] <ari_BOS> they just don't serve alcohol past 02:00
[20:56:36] <moray> bureado_UIO: I think we agreed this point wasn't primarily a cost one
[20:56:42] <MrBeige_NYC> I don't even consider closing times since it's always later than I care about
[20:56:43] <bureado_UIO> moray: Point #1 is.
[20:56:46] <mako_BOS> i don't think there'a 0.5 increase because it's easy to get food past 2:00
[20:56:58] <ari_BOS> the priority list technically didn't mention times
[20:57:02] <Ganneff> ok. 1.1/1/1?
[20:57:07] <mako_BOS> there are places in boston (and some very close to the venue) you can get food past 2:00 am
[20:57:08] <h01ger> 111
[20:57:26] <mako_BOS> h01ger, Ganneff: either sounds more realistic
[20:57:31] <ari_BOS> up to 3 or 4am
[20:57:37] <MrBeige_NYC> and again, in terms of price, morningside heights != times square
[20:57:41] <MrBeige_NYC> I would never eat in times square
[20:57:46] <Ganneff> nyc, uio ok with 1.1/1/1?
[20:57:51] <bureado_UIO> You can get food here less than a block away from the venue 24h., so...
[20:57:59] <MrBeige_NYC> you just walk a couple of avenues over to cheaper places
[20:58:07] <Roliverio_UIO> i think we're all equal.
[20:58:07] <MrBeige_NYC> (when you are in times square)
[20:58:10] <h01ger> Ganneff, maybe you should say whom you intend to give 1.1
[20:58:10] <Hydroxide_NYC> bureado_UIO: here too
[20:58:28] <MrBeige_NYC> 1.5 nyc is preferable
[20:58:31] <Ganneff> h01ger: default order as of always. nyc, uio, bos.
[20:58:31] <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide_NYC: I know.
[20:58:33] <Hydroxide_NYC> maybe 1.5 NYC/1 BOS/1.5 UIO? they seem to have pretty good food
[20:58:43] <Ganneff> would bos accept that?
[20:58:57] <ari_BOS> wait, why does uio get 1.5?
[20:59:04] <MrBeige_NYC> there are enough restaurants in nyc that every debconf attendee could go to a different one for every meal, with no overlap
[20:59:24] <MrBeige_NYC> not that we'll do that, of course, but if you want it it's here
[20:59:25] <mako_BOS> yeah, i just don't see it. i don't know enough about UIO but my experience at columbia puts them *much* closer to equal
[20:59:29] <Ganneff> i *think* we are in a dead end here.
[20:59:33] <ari_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: if you wanted to take the subway...
[20:59:34] <MrBeige_NYC> and "it" can include cheap, close, or as expensive as you want
[20:59:46] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: there are enough restaruants in boston and UIO for that to be true as well
[20:59:47] <bureado_UIO> We'd agree with equal if we take into account point #1 later.
[20:59:51] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: there's a ton in walking distance, too
[20:59:57] <moray> Ganneff: they're all equal, unless the bids can agree enough on a differentiated scoring
[21:00:00] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: well, we have to fill up the 2 to 4 hours somewhere :)
[21:00:08] <MrBeige_NYC> mako_BOS: 18,000 restaurants ?
[21:00:09] <Ganneff> moray: that is what it probably ends up, yes.
[21:00:15] <moray> Ganneff: though I think NYC are mostly trying to win back the .5 you took from them earlier :)
[21:00:34] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: dude, if there are 50 people want to go to, it doesn't matter if there are more
[21:00:37] <Hydroxide_NYC> moray: we can do that later on travel logistics :)
[21:00:51] * h01ger thinks we should really talk about points #1-3 again if we use more differentiated scoring now
[21:00:53] <marga> This is becoming tedious.
[21:00:54] <Ganneff> this doesnt lead us very far. lets make it similar to question 1: all equal, this time at +1, instead of 0. and i mark it as "revisit if ties"
[21:00:57] <Ganneff> we wont end it otherwise
[21:01:01] <Hydroxide_NYC> ok
[21:01:01] <bureado_UIO> ok
[21:01:07] <mako_BOS> sure
[21:01:07] <Ganneff> #topic 6 - suitable accommodation in close proximity
[21:01:09] * h01ger nods
[21:01:10] <moray> h01ger, marga: I agree
[21:01:10] <Roliverio_UIO> good
[21:01:23] <moray> h01ger, marga: we shouldn't worry about the tiny differences unless we really need it later
[21:01:41] <h01ger> thats why i'd be happy if Ganneff put the list up somewhere public
[21:01:49] <MrBeige_NYC> I give for consideration http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/NewYork#Accommodation
[21:02:09] <moray> h01ger: I'd suggest we go through all the points first *without* thinking about the overall 'totals'
[21:02:13] <Ganneff> http://ganneff.de/dc10.txt
[21:02:16] <MrBeige_NYC> all these, I have visited, talked to the management, and checked out
[21:02:19] <moray> h01ger: else we'll just get more and more fights near the end...
[21:02:22] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: http://rkd.zgib.net/wb/dc10cmp.wb updated as we make our decisions
[21:02:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: (unofficial NYC-team copy)
[21:02:40] <ari_BOS> so i think for accommodation, nyc and bos are equal
[21:02:47] <ari_BOS> uio is not if it requires busing
[21:02:52] <bureado_UIO> It doesn't.
[21:02:54] <h01ger> moray, point, but then.. what Hydroxide_NYC said :)
[21:03:00] <h01ger> Ganneff, danke
[21:03:00] <bureado_UIO> And it doesn't depend on school housing, either.
[21:03:04] <Ganneff> http://ganneff.de/dc10.txt is my live copy
[21:03:13] <MrBeige_NYC> Ganneff: ours is live, too!
[21:03:15] <mako_BOS> ari_BOS: sounds right. dorms supplemented by hostels and hotels
[21:03:26] <bureado_UIO> So we just bulk reserve rooms as normal customers do for huge int'l conferences here.
[21:03:27] <mako_BOS> hotels might be more expensive. but folks can choose to pay for that or not
[21:03:32] <Ganneff> MrBeige_NYC: yours requires JS :)
[21:03:42] <marga> MrBeige_NYC: the distances are all related to the Columbia building?
[21:03:43] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: your dorm rooms are as much as $96/person/night and don't have air conditioning
[21:03:44] <MrBeige_NYC> did I hear "we aren't looking outside of MIT", or was that in the past ?
[21:04:02] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: and don't have enough space for more than 200
[21:04:04] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: this isn't price
[21:04:06] <MrBeige_NYC> marga: distances are to exactly our main talk rooms from SEAS, along paths which people would actually walk
[21:04:13] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: our dorm rooms have air conditioning and can hold everyone
[21:04:18] <marga> MrBeige_NYC: ok, thanks
[21:04:23] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: then focus on the air conditioning and capacity points I'm making
[21:04:23] <bureado_UIO> OTOH, if we're taking money into account here, then any of our plans is cheaper and provides a great level of service.
[21:04:26] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: i don't think you've verified that
[21:04:41] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: do you have sufficient doubles in order to take advantage of the lowest prices you quote ?
[21:04:42] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: sorry, the $96/person/night ones have a/c
[21:04:51] <marga> ari_BOS: this is the point that worries me about MIT. The 200 number is too low. We need to plan for much more people, even if they have to pay.
[21:04:52] * h01ger likes the fact that fsf and olpc and mit are close to mit :)
[21:04:56] <bureado_UIO> Actually a room in the local JW Marriott hotel costs 96 USD/night... I believe 120 if you have a personal butler.
[21:04:58] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: the $40 or $57/person/night ones have no air conditioning at MIT
[21:05:04] <ari_BOS> marga: yes, we can definitely handle more than 200, just not at the dorms
[21:05:05] <h01ger> (doesnt really fit anywhere in our 10 points)
[21:05:08] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: this is as per your page
[21:05:21] <ari_BOS> the cheapest ones have no air conditioning, but plenty of windows and fans
[21:05:21] <marga> ari_BOS: but aren't the other hotels much further away?
[21:05:29] <ari_BOS> marga: the hotels are not much further
[21:05:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: our $52.50/person/night numbers include air conditioning with no capacity problems at the columbia dorms
[21:05:34] <ari_BOS> the hostels are about 3km
[21:05:45] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: price for singles on MIT campus is a lot greator, and it seems we would have to rely on those a lot
[21:05:56] <moray> this point isn't about price, unless the price means we might not actually use the option in question for being too expensive
[21:06:03] <bureado_UIO> so 0, 1, 0?
[21:06:11] <Hydroxide_NYC> bureado_UIO: which is the 1?
[21:06:14] <ari_BOS> er
[21:06:14] <moray> some of the prices quoted in the US for rooms might be too expensive to actually sponsor
[21:06:29] <Ganneff> for normal order that would be NYC 0 UIO 1 BOS 0
[21:06:33] <bureado_UIO> Hydroxide_NYC: http://ganneff.de/dc10.txt
[21:06:34] <MrBeige_NYC> I tihnk mit has to be at least equal with boston here
[21:06:43] <MrBeige_NYC> ah
[21:06:53] <MrBeige_NYC> we have a *large* number of bostions
[21:06:57] <MrBeige_NYC> oops, s/mit/CU/
[21:07:02] <bureado_UIO> what's a bostion?
[21:07:02] * Hydroxide_NYC boggles
[21:07:06] <Roliverio_UIO> LOL
[21:07:15] <MrBeige_NYC> haha
[21:07:23] <MrBeige_NYC> so, ew have a large number of *options*
[21:07:39] <MrBeige_NYC> cheap: yes, close: yes, big: yes
[21:07:48] <MrBeige_NYC> well, big is true of all of our options
[21:08:08] <ari_BOS> where big = many people
[21:08:14] <MrBeige_NYC> big = 300 people or more
[21:08:30] <MrBeige_NYC> and, again, I am talking from worst-case, not best-case
[21:08:35] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: so you're saying that the off-campus accomodations for MIT would be 3km away? that's really far
[21:08:51] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: no, i'm saying that if we housed people at the hostels, that would be 3km
[21:08:59] <moray> Boston and NYC seem to be in the same situation of possibly-expensive on-campus stuff and plenty of hotels nearby if that turns out too expensive
[21:09:00] <marga> ari_BOS: so, that's not really an option.
[21:09:03] <ari_BOS> the hotels are right next to campus
[21:09:03] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: ah. still really far.
[21:09:13] <ari_BOS> if people wanted to do the hostels, there's also a bus from there
[21:09:24] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: our hostels are closer than 3km
[21:09:29] <marga> ari_BOS: prices for the hotels?
[21:09:52] <ari_BOS> marga: the going price is around $200/night for a room
[21:09:53] <Hydroxide_NYC> I also would doubt that we'd get $96/person/night columbia dorm rooms to be sponsored in the quantities required by the Boston bid page
[21:10:08] <ari_BOS> which could include 2 or more people
[21:10:10] <MrBeige_NYC> Hydroxide_NYC: you mean s/columbia/boston/ ?
[21:10:13] <Hydroxide_NYC> err
[21:10:15] <Hydroxide_NYC> sorry, boston, yeah
[21:10:15] <Ganneff> 200USD per night? uh
[21:10:25] <Hydroxide_NYC> columbia maxes out at $52.50
[21:10:25] <ari_BOS> i don't know what we'd get for a group rate
[21:10:40] <mako_BOS> ari_BOS: this is for the nice hotels
[21:10:45] <MrBeige_NYC> (nyc's numbers are already adjusted for 2010 based on best gusses)
[21:10:45] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: our rates are applicable to our group, and already adjusted for 2010
[21:10:51] <marga> ari_BOS: that's incredibly expensive
[21:10:52] <ari_BOS> mako_BOS: i was only counting the hotels at kendall
[21:10:53] <h01ger> +1, +.8, +.6?
[21:11:01] <mako_BOS> ok, that's one of the nicest hotels in the area :)
[21:11:19] <ari_BOS> sure, but they wanted close proximity
[21:11:46] <mako_BOS> ari_BOS: there are a couple of other ones down mem drive which will be cheaper and are close to the student center
[21:11:47] <bureado_UIO> h01ger: Do we take price into account here? I mean, 20 USD/person/night...
[21:11:56] <ari_BOS> mako_BOS: do you know how much the hyatt is?
[21:12:12] <Hydroxide_NYC> bureado_UIO: I think we take into account price to the extent that it makes something impossible for us to afford
[21:12:15] <marga> bureado_UIO: remind us the capacity of the hotel that used to be Plan B, please.
[21:12:24] <MrBeige_NYC> I think price should be taken into account, if someone argues affordibility based on the cheapest rooms but in reality we'll need more of the more expensive ones
[21:12:54] <ari_BOS> no, that means we should do actual calculations for the first point
[21:12:55] <h01ger> bureado_UIO, i think we do
[21:13:04] <Roliverio_UIO> marga: 500
[21:13:08] <MrBeige_NYC> so that should explicitey be discussed somewhere, and under accommodations seems most obvious
[21:13:13] <h01ger> cheaper is way more "suitable"
[21:13:18] <Hydroxide_NYC> from the boston page: "We can house about 200 total people in the dorms between the 2nd week in July and the 1st week in August - this would be a combination of rooms at The Warehouse efficiency units (60 Studios), Baker House (60 Singles/ 20 Doubles), and McCormick Hall (20 Singles / 20 Doubles). "
[21:13:42] <Hydroxide_NYC> so it's mostly the expensive rooms ($96/person/night and $57/person/night) and not mostly the cheaper rooms ($40/person/night)
[21:13:48] <marga> Roliverio_UIO: I meant sleeping quarters, the wiki seems to say only 60/70 people. The rest should go to nearby (how far? / how many?) hotels.
[21:13:51] <Roliverio_UIO> marga: sorry 400
[21:13:53] <Hydroxide_NYC> and only the $96/person/night one are air conditioned.
[21:14:26] <mako_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: but the cheaper rooms hold most of the people
[21:14:33] <bureado_UIO> marga: Around 100 people in Hotel Sebastián, and thousands of people in La Mariscal, most feasibly 200-300 people in nearby hotels and hostales.
[21:14:59] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: no. (20+20) * 2 < 60+60
[21:15:02] <ari_BOS> also consider how many people are already in the area and wouldn't need housing
[21:15:10] <MrBeige_NYC> singles: 60+60+20=140 vs (20+20)*2=80
[21:15:14] <MrBeige_NYC> boston--^
[21:15:17] <bureado_UIO> h01ger: One of my associates is *living* in a hostal for one month, he has free 2Mbps wireless internet, free breakfast and walks to La Mariscal and pays 22 USD/night.
[21:15:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> right, MrBeige_NYC got the numbers more correct than I did
[21:15:37] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: a lot of those would be above and beyond usual numbers, not instead of, no?
[21:15:37] <marga> bureado_UIO: I know that this is in the air, but would you say that we need to split in 2, 3, 4 or more separate hotels?
[21:16:00] <ari_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: no, especially given that a lot of people can sleep on couches
[21:16:11] <ari_BOS> and a lot of boston DDs went to, say, dc7
[21:16:15] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: I like planning better than that
[21:16:30] <MrBeige_NYC> bureado_UIO: HI is like that re: features, and public spaces
[21:16:31] <bureado_UIO> marga: I'd say three hotels.
[21:16:44] <marga> bureado_UIO: ok, sounds fine.
[21:16:52] * h01ger thinks couchhoping is inferior than one big place where everybody is. its nice to see how people live, but its nicer to have a united experience
[21:17:09] <ari_BOS> sure
[21:17:28] <Ganneff> ok. can we slowly come to a rating?
[21:17:36] <Ganneff> i know its hard, but still
[21:17:53] <marga> ari_BOS: are there other hotels that cost less than USD 200 at the same (or less) distance?
[21:18:03] <Ganneff> how about: every bid please rate the two other bids for this point.
[21:18:08] <ari_BOS> marga: checking quickly
[21:18:10] <moray> I guess part of the problem here is that all the options are still unclear on the details
[21:18:29] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: uio is 1 and bos is 0 I'd say
[21:18:39] * h01ger nods moray, but sees a slight advantage for nyc + uio
[21:18:48] <Roliverio_UIO> i would put BOS and NYC at the same level, we have a clear advantage on price.
[21:18:54] <h01ger> btw, for latecomers: this channel is moderated, but there is #dc10-talk
[21:18:56] <MrBeige_NYC> what is the normalization for a "1" score ? "about as good as most past debconfs" ?
[21:18:57] <Ganneff> Roliverio_UIO: actual numbers please.
[21:19:00] <ari_BOS> are we taking price into account here or not?
[21:19:11] <Roliverio_UIO> Ganneff: 0/1/0
[21:19:31] <Hydroxide_NYC> oh, we're ranking ourselves too?
[21:19:33] <h01ger> MrBeige, "winner"
[21:19:34] <Ganneff> no
[21:19:42] <Ganneff> please again, only the two other bids.
[21:19:42] <moray> MrBeige: I was reading 0 as acceptable, -1 as potential problems, +1 as usefully better than needed
[21:19:48] <Roliverio_UIO> Ganneff: 0/0
[21:20:05] <Ganneff> bos please rate the other two
[21:20:10] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: I would argue that "what we are looking for" is more useful than "winner", but that's for another time
[21:20:12] <ari_BOS> 0/0
[21:20:13] <Ganneff> (and take into account whatever you want)
[21:20:29] <Ganneff> so. this would mean uio 1, bos and nyc 0, with those ratings
[21:20:37] <moray> so let's go with that?
[21:20:44] <moray> it seems a fair way to have got it
[21:20:58] <MrBeige_NYC> I might argue a bit more for nyc because of options, which are *affordable* options
[21:21:04] <moray> (since we've already argued a long time on this point)
[21:21:14] <Ganneff> lets continue for now and see how the rest goes
[21:21:17] <h01ger> MrBeige, i ment "winner" as in "what we are looking for". FTW in non ironic :)
[21:21:19] <MrBeige_NYC> Ganneff: agreed
[21:21:20] <Hydroxide_NYC> yes, let's go on
[21:21:25] <Ganneff> #topic 7 - presentation facilities
[21:21:58] <moray> what is the new Quito plan (old plan B) like for this?
[21:22:00] <ari_BOS> seems like nyc/bos are equal on this for columbia/mit?
[21:22:06] <bureado_UIO> We have what's fair for an event like DC -- beamers and audio. Video is not included, it might be easier to rent it here (because of no import regulations, USD being local currency et al.)
[21:22:15] * Hydroxide_NYC agrees with ari_BOS for a change :)
[21:22:18] <moray> both the Stata Centre type thing in MIT and law school type thing in Columbia should be very good for this
[21:22:22] <Ganneff> nyc and bos both have classroom like styles for this. and auditoriums afaik. so equal.
[21:22:23] <ari_BOS> but not for HI
[21:22:31] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: we're not planning to use HI as the venue for the talks
[21:22:35] <ari_BOS> right
[21:22:36] <Ganneff> how to place uio in comparison?
[21:22:38] <bureado_UIO> moray: Same. Hotel Sebastián (and FWIW any of the other plans we've considered, Circulo Militar or CIESPAL) provides it.
[21:22:45] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: it's just the backup option
[21:22:51] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: which we don't plan on using
[21:23:52] <h01ger> its not only AV+projector, but also seats and closeness to the hacklabs
[21:23:54] <Ganneff> so we have 0/?/0 right now. (or 1/?/1, no difference in effect)
[21:24:06] <h01ger> 1?1
[21:24:09] <MrBeige_NYC> 1?1
[21:24:18] <ari_BOS> we have plans for hacklabs & talk rooms in the same building
[21:24:37] <moray> in my experience hotel conference suites are generally less good for large numbers than university auditoriums, but it was fine with just a plain room for the main talks in Argentina
[21:24:57] <bureado_UIO> Why is that ?
[21:25:13] <ari_BOS> flat not good
[21:25:14] <bureado_UIO> How are we not providing what's needed for a DC?
[21:25:14] <h01ger> a non-plain/flat room for example
[21:25:22] <moray> bureado_UIO: the university main talk rooms would have tiered seating, permanently-installed projectors, etc.
[21:26:02] <mako_BOS> most classrooms at mit have been refurbished in the last few years for better av support, etc
[21:26:09] <bureado_UIO> moray: Sure, then it's 1/0/1, let's not pospone this.
[21:26:17] <Ganneff> thanks!
[21:26:18] * Hydroxide_NYC says yes to 1/0/1
[21:26:40] <ari_BOS> i'll agree with that
[21:26:41] <Ganneff> #topic 8 - travel logistics
[21:27:19] <h01ger> 000?
[21:27:25] <MrBeige_NYC> no way
[21:27:27] <bureado_UIO> We don't ask visas.
[21:27:32] * bureado_UIO runs
[21:27:33] <MrBeige_NYC> ah
[21:27:38] <ari_BOS> how far is the airport from the venue in quito?
[21:27:48] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: The airport is on the city.
[21:27:48] <moray> what were the airport to venue *times* for all the bids?
[21:27:54] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: About 10 minutes, I'd say.
[21:28:05] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: I made 5 minutes today, but it's sunday and I hit all red lights.
[21:28:06] <ari_BOS> moray: 45-60 minutes via public transport
[21:28:13] <Hydroxide_NYC> for us, it was usually 30-60 minutes depending on which airport
[21:28:13] <ari_BOS> i question new york's claim of under an hour
[21:28:20] <bureado_UIO> There's a new airport being built, it won't be ready for DC10 though.
[21:28:28] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: 30 minutes from LGA, 60 minutes from EWR
[21:28:34] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: a bit more from JFK
[21:28:34] * h01ger nods ari_BOS
[21:28:41] <ari_BOS> what about the fact that most people will be coming into JFK?
[21:28:48] <ari_BOS> and isn't 60 minutes from EWR only to port authority?
[21:28:55] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: no. 30 minutes to penn station.
[21:28:56] <marga> I don't think time from the airport matters.
[21:29:04] <ari_BOS> er sorry penn
[21:29:06] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: JFK will still be between 1-2 hours
[21:29:07] <MrBeige_NYC> nyc times: 30 min from LGA, 60-75min JFK, 60min EWR (depending on mode of travel)
[21:29:17] <ari_BOS> 60-120min JFK
[21:29:31] <marga> We have two issues: price+length of the flight, which clearly benefits the US. visa issues, which clearly benefit Quito.
[21:29:35] <moray> but actually Quito make a fair point I think that visa stuff should come under this point?
[21:29:41] <moray> and if we include that I think they win easily
[21:29:44] <ari_BOS> so for length of the flight nyc/bos are equal
[21:29:47] <mako_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: jfk is AT LEAST an hour from columbia by MTA
[21:29:52] <ari_BOS> visa issues obviously benefit uio
[21:30:02] <MrBeige_NYC> ftr google trainsit says 1:15, 1:13, 1:28 for times from JFK
[21:30:10] <ari_BOS> but do they even each other out
[21:30:11] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: I agree. see above where I say that.
[21:30:25] <h01ger> moray, why do you think quito wins clearly if visa is taken into account?
[21:30:32] <marga> yes, but this one was used on point 1, to even out the fact that all stuff is cheaper in Quito.
[21:30:41] <moray> h01ger: because with the visa stuff / stupidity of even the "visa waiver program" included, either US bid is probably -1
[21:30:46] <marga> I think we need to split 1 and 8 into 3 points...
[21:31:04] <Roliverio_UIO> i propose 1/2/1
[21:31:07] * h01ger nods marga
[21:31:16] <ari_BOS> Roliverio_UIO: you mean 0/1/0
[21:31:19] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: what if someone arrives overnight in boston when the public transit isn't running?
[21:31:20] <Roliverio_UIO> lol
[21:31:26] <Ganneff> we did plan to revisit 1, so we can take the money foo again.
[21:31:30] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: then they take a taxi, which is around $20-$30 i think
[21:31:33] <Ganneff> what do you want to split 8 to?
[21:31:36] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: ok
[21:31:37] <Roliverio_UIO> ari_BOS: certainly.
[21:31:47] <Roliverio_UIO> 0/1/0 it's pretty fair.
[21:31:47] <ari_BOS> that reminds me, how much is taxi from the various airports?
[21:31:50] <bureado_UIO> Even though we're quantitatively losing, it'd be nice to learn from our current priority list for future decisions.
[21:31:55] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: 7 USD official service.
[21:31:58] <h01ger> marga, can you propose a patch for http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/LocationCheckList after the meeting? :)
[21:32:04] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: 3,4 USD if you go with random people.
[21:32:04] <marga> Ganneff: I want to have "Local affordability", "Travel costs+times", "Visa issues".
[21:32:11] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: in NYC taxi would only make sense from JFK
[21:32:13] * ari_BOS agrees with marga
[21:32:16] <Ganneff> ok.
[21:32:17] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS: About 1-2 USD bus.
[21:32:21] <Ganneff> sec
[21:32:30] <moray> marga: the current priority list was taken from bdale and intentionally not discussed/argued about :)
[21:32:49] <Ganneff> lets take the local affordability into 1 too
[21:32:50] <moray> (IIRC)
[21:33:00] <Ganneff> #topic 8 - travel costs and time
[21:33:05] <Ganneff> and make this topic 8 now.
[21:33:08] <marga> moray: I know, but it seems that the fact that travel is more expensive for Quito is used to even out point 1 and 8, and that seems unfrair.
[21:33:08] <moray> (the visa thing wasn't an issue that year though)
[21:33:11] <Ganneff> (i edited the wiki, reload)
[21:33:14] <ari_BOS> wait how did uio get screwed on that last one?
[21:33:22] <bureado_UIO> :(
[21:33:22] <ari_BOS> oh nevermind, i misread
[21:33:41] <marga> ok.
[21:33:45] <Hydroxide_NYC> travel costs and time would be nyc 1, bos 0.5, quito 0
[21:33:46] <ari_BOS> so on this point, it's pretty obviously 1/0/1
[21:33:52] <moray> so on this new topic, Quito will be longer for Europeans at least, often needing changes
[21:34:01] <bureado_UIO> Yes.
[21:34:19] <MrBeige_NYC> and let's not forget that nyc has many more options
[21:34:22] <bureado_UIO> Better for LatAms (and maybe people in .au and Asia, but that's arguable)
[21:34:26] <Ganneff> can nyc live with 1/0/1?
[21:34:36] <Ganneff> or does it want bos at 0.5 and could bos live with that?
[21:34:38] <ari_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: that doesn't seem to affect the cost/time compared to e.g. bos
[21:34:38] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: we're giving ari an awful lot of the benefit of the doubt on this
[21:34:52] <MrBeige_NYC> i.e., if one thing is full there is often a second way to do it
[21:34:53] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: I mean, throughout this whole meeting, we're rounding small differences in his favor
[21:35:06] <MrBeige_NYC> Ganneff: we've been giving boston the benefit of teh doubt a lot
[21:35:17] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: this difference is at least as meaningful as the network connection difference (i.e. "marginally" in both cases)
[21:35:23] <Ganneff> i dont ask what you did, i ask what you want to do now with this :)
[21:35:37] <Hydroxide_NYC> I think 1/0/0.5 makes sense
[21:35:39] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: not when it doesn't actually affect anything
[21:35:42] <Ganneff> i can live with one having a .5 less/more
[21:35:42] <moray> NYC is definitely a more major travel hub than Boston
[21:35:49] <Ganneff> thats true.
[21:35:55] <Ganneff> so, bos ok with 1/0/0.5?
[21:36:03] <MrBeige_NYC> and direct flights, new york wins a lot
[21:36:24] <MrBeige_NYC> considering there's just so much here
[21:36:30] <Ganneff> bos?
[21:36:35] <ari_BOS> thinking
[21:36:43] <h01ger> NYC is also more difficult to travel than in boston
[21:36:44] <MrBeige_NYC> when you consider that new york is much more of a "global city"
[21:36:52] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: um, not at all true.
[21:36:55] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: how so?
[21:37:01] <h01ger> its biiiig
[21:37:15] <ari_BOS> so the fact that NYC has 3 area airports doesn't affect time or cost much
[21:37:20] <moray> h01ger: the transport system is better though, and the DebConf stuff would be walking distance AIUI
[21:37:27] <MrBeige_NYC> if you take *only* manhattan it's as easy to travel as boston
[21:37:28] <moray> also not relevant to this point
[21:37:33] <MrBeige_NYC> just consider big a bonus
[21:37:37] <MrBeige_NYC> not a downside
[21:37:40] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: that's why I'm saying only a 0.5 difference instead of 1 difference between NYC and BOS
[21:37:52] <h01ger> remember the plans we made for people who need help with that? they will be scared as hell in NYC ;)
[21:37:54] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: but i don't see any difference at all on this point
[21:37:55] <MrBeige_NYC> we could consider only the upper west side, and it's as full-features as boston is
[21:38:08] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: I disagree with being scared in nyc
[21:38:09] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: I mean, we're talking 30-90 minutes from any of the airports to the venue
[21:38:17] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: and the flights are slightly cheaper to NYC
[21:38:37] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: there are some where the reverse is true
[21:38:42] <ari_BOS> according to the table
[21:38:49] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: overall though, flights are slightly cheaper and more plentiful to NYC
[21:38:49] <h01ger> MrBeige_NYC, you life there. (i also disagree, i'm not scared, but some people are)
[21:38:52] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: yes there are exceptions
[21:39:11] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: and travel time from airport to venue is comparable in both NYC and BOS. therefore 1/0/0.5
[21:39:17] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: it is very well labeled (not scarry for the millions who visit every year)
[21:39:24] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: and also well documented on wikipedia how it works
[21:39:28] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: 46 million people visited in 2007
[21:39:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: they manage just fine
[21:39:39] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: and take the subway
[21:39:41] <moray> ari_BOS: on point 4 I said a 10% difference, I think the NYC international travel advantage is a bit more than that
[21:39:52] <ari_BOS> moray: how?
[21:40:06] <moray> ari_BOS: judging by flight prices/choices from Europe
[21:40:23] <marga> ari_BOS: it's a huge international hub, more flights come and go.
[21:40:36] <marga> The difference is quite subtle regarding DebConf's standards, though.
[21:40:52] <moray> I mean, it's just a fact NYC's a bigger hub -- Boston of course would be fine, NYC has an advantage for flights though
[21:40:53] <ari_BOS> just based on clint's table of prices, i don't see that
[21:40:56] <marga> But that's the problem we have with the current meeting. Most differences are quite subtle.
[21:41:06] <ari_BOS> but i think we'd need to revisit that
[21:41:24] <Ganneff> sooo. take it as 1/0/0.5 for now and mark revisit in case we have a tie?
[21:41:31] <bureado_UIO> Ganneff: +1
[21:41:36] <Hydroxide_NYC> ok Ganneff
[21:41:40] <MrBeige_NYC> ok
[21:41:41] <Ganneff> bos?
[21:41:43] <ari_BOS> i'll submit to that but i don't like it
[21:41:53] <Ganneff> thank you
[21:41:57] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: it's ok, we didn't like a lot of stuff above, either
[21:42:01] <Ganneff> #topic 9 - Visa issues
[21:42:07] <moray> US lose here
[21:42:14] <ari_BOS> no difference nyc/bos
[21:42:22] <Ganneff> yes. UIO will be +1 in this case.
[21:42:22] <marga> So, it's 0/1/0 ?
[21:42:24] <ari_BOS> same resources would be available
[21:42:28] <ari_BOS> yes
[21:42:31] <bureado_UIO> yes
[21:42:32] * Hydroxide_NYC agrees
[21:42:34] <bureado_UIO> And triple bonus
[21:42:38] <Roliverio_UIO> lol
[21:42:43] <bureado_UIO> Since everyone else forfeited
[21:42:46] <Ganneff> #topic 10 - accessibility
[21:42:46] <moray> Ganneff: well to make Quito happier about their -1 before I'd say -1 for the US places here :)
[21:42:52] <moray> even if it's the same effect
[21:42:56] <Ganneff> stop
[21:42:58] <Ganneff> #topic 9 - Visa issues
[21:43:06] <Ganneff> now what. -1 or 0 for us?
[21:43:10] <ari_BOS> -1
[21:43:11] * Hydroxide_NYC is ok with -1/1/-1
[21:43:13] <Ganneff> ok
[21:43:20] <ari_BOS> uio would be better than europe
[21:43:23] <ari_BOS> and us would be worse than europe
[21:43:26] <Ganneff> yes
[21:43:30] <Ganneff> #topic 10 - accessibility
[21:43:34] <Ganneff> thanks, lets go on.
[21:44:16] <Ganneff> i cant judge a diff between nyc/bos here, but can bet uio wont be as good as most of the us.
[21:44:21] <bureado_UIO> Yes.
[21:44:35] <Ganneff> unfortunately true that latam still has some way to go here.
[21:44:37] <ari_BOS> i haven't seen the other venues' accessibility so i don't know how it compares
[21:44:38] <bureado_UIO> I think BOS might be slightly better than NYC, but I'd let them tell us.
[21:44:53] <bureado_UIO> so x/0/z
[21:45:07] <Hydroxide_NYC> I think NYC and BOS are probably equal here
[21:45:11] <Hydroxide_NYC> 1/0/1
[21:45:11] <moray> I don't know the difference between Boston and NYC for this, is there one?
[21:45:12] <Ganneff> uio as 0 should be ok - i bet the venue and directly used stuff will be fine.
[21:45:12] <ari_BOS> all of the buildings we'd use are wheelchair-accessible, but i don't know if that's any better or worse than nyc
[21:45:20] <Hydroxide_NYC> yeah, we'll be using wheelchair-accessible buildings too
[21:45:31] <moray> I would have assumed the buildings *had* to be accessible in the US by now
[21:45:32] <ari_BOS> i'm fine with 1/0/1
[21:45:38] <ari_BOS> moray: all new buildings do
[21:45:38] <Ganneff> so a +1 for the us ones and 0 for uio then.
[21:45:44] <Hydroxide_NYC> moray: new buildings do, but not all buildings have to be retrofitted in every case
[21:45:47] <ari_BOS> most college campuses probably do
[21:46:02] <Ganneff> ok. we have all done, now we have 3 marked as revisit.
[21:46:11] <Ganneff> one of it would be
[21:46:15] <Ganneff> #topic 1 - "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
[21:46:15] <h01ger> is uio really 0?
[21:46:26] <Ganneff> which we marked as 0/0/0
[21:46:31] <h01ger> (that was for previos topic but anyway)
[21:46:33] <ari_BOS> so do we want to do an actual price calculation?
[21:46:33] <moray> h01ger: on point 1 or 10?
[21:46:39] <Ganneff> h01ger: yes, they will be below the us on point 10
[21:46:39] <marga> h01ger: they admitted the city was going to be not too well fitted, even if the venue is ok.
[21:46:57] <marga> No, we just take travel costs away from this point.
[21:47:04] <bureado_UIO> Do you have the rankings for .ar and .mx? I believe we would easily fit there.
[21:47:07] <marga> And thus, this is only about food and accom. Not travel.
[21:47:10] <ari_BOS> so without travel costs quito is clearly the winner
[21:47:26] <Ganneff> bureado_UIO: todays rankings arent comparable with prior meetings.
[21:47:30] <Ganneff> lets make this a
[21:47:45] <Ganneff> #topic 1.1 - "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees (no travel cost included)
[21:47:47] <ari_BOS> and nyc/bos would probably be -1 if we compare it to previous conferences
[21:48:08] <moray> ari_BOS: e.g. Oslo was more expensive
[21:48:11] <Ganneff> #topic 1 - "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees (no travel cost included)
[21:48:16] <Ganneff> 1.1, silly irssi
[21:48:16] <Hydroxide_NYC> so 0/1/0 for this?
[21:48:21] <bureado_UIO> Yes.
[21:48:27] <h01ger> Ganneff, (still about accessibility), but you said: "i bet the venue and directly used stuff will be fine."
[21:48:36] <ari_BOS> i'd almost go -1/0/-1, but i don't know that it matters
[21:48:39] <Ganneff> h01ger: yes.
[21:48:57] <moray> ari_BOS: to me they're 0 in being 'acceptable' if not great on price
[21:49:06] <Ganneff> i think 0 is ok, doesnt need -1
[21:49:09] <ari_BOS> ok
[21:49:13] * h01ger agrees
[21:49:25] <Hydroxide_NYC> ok
[21:49:36] <Ganneff> ok, that seems to be enough for the revisit here?
[21:49:42] <ari_BOS> for this particular one, yes
[21:49:51] <Ganneff> the next marked one was number 5
[21:49:52] <MrBeige_NYC> wait, did we say we would revisit accommodation costs somewhere ?
[21:50:23] <MrBeige_NYC> or was that somewhere else?
[21:50:27] <Ganneff> we have marked 5 and 8 for revisit still
[21:50:27] <Hydroxide_NYC> we said food
[21:50:36] <Ganneff> #topic 5 - quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
[21:50:42] <Ganneff> that was 1/1/1 last time
[21:50:56] <moray> I think NYC felt cheated here?
[21:51:03] <MrBeige_NYC> yes
[21:51:32] <MrBeige_NYC> we can take a subset of our options, and say that's equal to mit
[21:51:35] <MrBeige_NYC> and then add a lot more to it
[21:51:44] <moray> I don't know what the actual "close proximity" Columbia area is like
[21:52:01] <MrBeige_NYC> moray: very liveable and active at all times of night
[21:52:21] <marga> I don't think this point matters that much...
[21:52:32] <moray> from when I visited MIT before I can't remember as many non-uni places in the streets immediately around it
[21:52:35] <ari_BOS> it seemed to me that for the purposes of debconf the two were equal
[21:52:37] <Hydroxide_NYC> http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=106839856526902022134.00046154d31b255323899&ll=40.808174,-73.962933&spn=0.00458,0.011673&t=h&z=17
[21:52:38] <MrBeige_NYC> moray: http://rkd.zgib.net/http/dc10nyc/hi-stuff2.jpg
[21:52:56] <ari_BOS> i did not put surrounding food options on our map yet
[21:52:56] <Hydroxide_NYC> oh yeah, MrBeige_NYC has a better link
[21:53:01] <MrBeige_NYC> moray: --^ that is a (partial) list of things that HI gives out
[21:53:08] <moray> ok
[21:53:18] <mako_BOS> so in terms of total dining experiences, new york city is clearly better
[21:53:18] <moray> just asking as I guess for "close proximity" it doesn't mean the whole city
[21:53:22] <Hydroxide_NYC> and stuff that's near HI is also near Columbia
[21:53:24] <ari_BOS> nyc seems to think it does
[21:53:32] <mako_BOS> in terms of the actual relevance to debconf, i really don't see a major difference
[21:53:33] <MrBeige_NYC> moray: it's right south of columbia, but is tyyyypiiical for the area
[21:53:33] <Hydroxide_NYC> moray: correct. it doesn't mean the whole city. there's a lot near columbia/HI
[21:53:41] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: see above. we don't.
[21:53:42] <MrBeige_NYC> meaning, tons of stuff
[21:53:44] <moray> ari_BOS: well, I think 'around MIT' is also much more limited than 'all of Boston'
[21:53:50] <Ganneff> ok. let me jump in: please reload my dc10.txt
[21:53:58] <Ganneff> below i wrote what a simple addition of all values tells us.
[21:54:01] <mako_BOS> if we've got a dozen EXACTLY RIGHT THERE places with decent cheap food, i think we're set
[21:54:06] <ari_BOS> moray: absolutely, so i'm not counting every place in boston
[21:54:09] <MrBeige_NYC> close proximity is the kinnd of place i'll go for lunch
[21:54:23] <MrBeige_NYC> and walk there
[21:54:26] <ari_BOS> there are TONS of options during the day to eat around mit
[21:54:33] <moray> mako_BOS: so you can comment between the Columbia area vs. the MIT area?
[21:54:34] <ari_BOS> less so late at night, but there are still options
[21:54:42] * h01ger hopes zgib.net is not an example for network connectivtiy in NYC ;)
[21:54:43] <Ganneff> so taking this, we have a tie between nyc and bos. which means it matters if we can resolve this somehow.
[21:54:48] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: no, that's in texas :)
[21:54:55] <mako_BOS> moray: honestly, it think both areas are slightly crappy :)
[21:55:05] <marga> Ganneff: can you give the full URL, please?
[21:55:10] <mako_BOS> but you'll do just fine in either one :)
[21:55:14] <Ganneff> http://ganneff.de/dc10.txt
[21:55:16] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: it's not located in new york
[21:55:19] <h01ger> Hydroxide_NYC, you people always blame texas for everything. almost like austria here ;)
[21:55:27] <moray> mako_BOS: right, I was being more polite than that but that was my feeling immediately near MIT compared to elsewhere in Boston ;)
[21:55:28] <ari_BOS> it's so easy to blame
[21:55:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> h01ger: haha :)
[21:55:42] <MrBeige_NYC> h01ger: I grew up in texas, so I have the right to blame them
[21:55:48] <h01ger> hehe
[21:55:54] <ari_BOS> moray: kendall basically shuts down at night, but near MIT (central square) absolutely does not
[21:56:15] <MrBeige_NYC> central square is not "right next to mit"
[21:56:22] <mako_BOS> moray: the best food in boston is not near mit and the best food in nyc is not in morningside heights. both are wel equipped for serving students though and both will be completely fine for our purposes
[21:56:24] <marga> People...
[21:56:27] <MrBeige_NYC> not compared to what I am talking about when I say "right next to"
[21:56:29] <Ganneff> ok. its hard to resolve this. brak please. can the bids look at my file and say if they agree with that currently?
[21:56:33] <marga> Can we focus? We are gettin into 3 hours now.
[21:56:35] <Hydroxide_NYC> the area around columbia/hi has more food places open later than the area around MIT
[21:56:42] <Hydroxide_NYC> and bars, too
[21:56:45] * h01ger suggests a real 5min break
[21:56:48] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: it's right next to the part of MIT we're talking about hosting the conference in
[21:56:51] <marga> Yes, me too.
[21:56:59] * Hydroxide_NYC is ok with a 5min break. we're very close everyone!
[21:57:00] <marga> Let's break until 22 UTC
[21:57:01] <Ganneff> NYC: does 5 / 3 / 5 sound ok, according to your notes?
[21:57:04] <Ganneff> BOS: does 5 / 3 / 5 sound ok, according to your notes?
[21:57:06] <Ganneff> UIO: does 5 / 3 / 5 sound ok, according to your notes?
[21:57:18] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: yes
[21:57:19] <Roliverio_UIO> yes.
[21:57:22] <MrBeige_NYC> we can compare morningside heights/mit, upper west side/manhattan/boston, and then as a bonus all the rest of nyc
[21:57:23] <h01ger> are we still ranking #5?
[21:57:31] <Ganneff> h01ger: later.
[21:57:32] <ari_BOS> Ganneff: are the points weighted?
[21:57:34] <marga> we are taking a break.
[21:57:36] <Ganneff> ari_BOS: currently not.
[21:57:40] <ari_BOS> then yes
[21:57:48] <mako_BOS> Ganneff: definitely! :)
[21:57:52] <Ganneff> ok. do we think UIO still has a chance?
[21:57:56] <Ganneff> h01ger: lass die finger weg
[21:57:59] * Hydroxide_NYC would suggest revisiting #4 instead of #5 if we can't agree on #5
[21:58:10] <ari_BOS> we may need to revisit some uio stuff
[21:58:21] <bureado_UIO> I think we put together a great bid, that is :)
[21:58:29] <Ganneff> bureado_UIO: that we all agree, i think.
[21:58:31] * h01ger is confused where we are and really suggests a 5min break to refocus
[21:58:33] <Ganneff> all did
[21:58:46] <Ganneff> h01ger: read what marga wrote. 22 utc. and dont jump in as chair. thanks.
[21:58:47] <mako_BOS> i don't think revisiting UIO stuff will get them 2 points
[21:58:59] <mako_BOS> :(
[21:59:06] <Roliverio_UIO> but we'll be glad if they do :D
[21:59:07] <Roliverio_UIO> xD
[21:59:20] <Ganneff> UIO: for all the nice stuff you did, do you think you can still win if we revisit some points?
[21:59:22] <marga> Ganneff: ah, my point was to break until 22:00, not since 22:00
[21:59:27] <h01ger> Ganneff, marga said so, but then you changed the topic to discussion. which in my book is not the same break
[21:59:41] <marga> Anyway, we can break now till 22:05
[21:59:41] <h01ger> and what marga just said
[21:59:45] <h01ger> yeah :)
[21:59:50] <Ganneff> #topic break
[21:59:59] <bureado_UIO> Ganneff: No, thank everyone for your time, and count us in for future bids and helping out the winner.
[22:00:08] <Roliverio_UIO> Ganneff: likewise.
[22:00:15] <Ganneff> UIO: thank you!
[22:00:19] <Roliverio_UIO> Ganneff, marga, h01ger: thanks!
[22:00:31] <Ganneff> uio: and for all i care, yes, it will be great if you bid again. like for dc12!
[22:00:36] <Ganneff> you have my support, at least
[22:00:42] <h01ger> Roliverio_UIO, bureado_UIO, and everyone else from uio: thank you!
[22:00:43] <moray> bureado_UIO: yes, I think you'd do better with more time, too
[22:01:02] <bureado_UIO> Thank you all for the support.
[22:01:06] <Ganneff> ok. this makes it easier for after the break. only 2 venues.
[22:01:10] <moray> bureado_UIO: it's only during this meeting you focussed completely on "one location", so if you run a new bid starting with that, ...
[22:01:18] <mako_BOS> bureado_UIO, Roliverio_UIO: thanks guys!
[22:01:20] <bureado_UIO> ari_BOS, Hydroxide_NYC We wish you most success, let us know how we can help you.
[22:01:44] <mako_BOS> honestly, i think UIO would be more fun for me :)
[22:01:45] <marga> bureado_UIO, Roliverio_UIO, ailefi_UIO: and everybody, thanks for the hard work, and I definitely hope you'll propose Quito for a future DebConf.
[22:01:46] <Hydroxide_NYC> bureado_UIO: thanks :) and thanks for the great bid
[22:01:56] <MrBeige_NYC> bureado_UIO: thanks! you'd have it in a different year
[22:02:02] <MrBeige_NYC> (next time!)
[22:02:12] <Roliverio_UIO> thanks!
[22:02:13] <moray> mako_BOS: yes, on a personal travel leve I'd far rather go to Quito :)
[22:02:14] <moray> level
[22:02:55] <ari_BOS> me too
[22:02:57] <moray> maybe we can add a "does Moray get to see a new country?" priority item!
[22:03:00] <ari_BOS> but probably not in the summer :)
[22:05:58] <Ganneff> ok. all ready to go on?
[22:06:08] <Hydroxide_NYC> yep
[22:06:11] <Ganneff> ive updated http://ganneff.de/dc10.txt with the uio removal.
[22:06:16] <ari_BOS> ready
[22:06:20] <marga> So, let's face it. Both proposals are way too similar. We can't decide on one venue over the other because there are more restaurants in the neighborhood or because there are more gigabits available which we'll never use...
[22:06:40] <Ganneff> yes. those two topics wont get us a clear decision.
[22:06:43] <h01ger> marga, hehe. good point
[22:06:45] <Ganneff> so, how to decide?
[22:06:55] <marga> We need to come up on an agreement of which of the two proposals would result in a better DebConf.
[22:06:55] <h01ger> so which do?
[22:07:17] <ari_BOS> should we bring up another point that's not on the priority list?
[22:07:20] <Ganneff> yes
[22:07:26] <ari_BOS> or a few points, to take everything into consideration?
[22:07:34] <Hydroxide_NYC> sure, we will do the same
[22:07:37] <Ganneff> i would want both teams to get us one or two points.
[22:07:40] <ari_BOS> and by we i mean the orga
[22:07:45] <ari_BOS> but i guess not
[22:08:00] <marga> An ana mentions on the other channel, local team is really the key to a good DebConf...
[22:08:21] <marga> But I fear this might become another endless debate.
[22:08:40] <moray> marga: well, Boston are very good there from how many people are present, NYC seem better to me from how they've actually worked as a team so far
[22:08:44] <Ganneff> if we take local team *strict* (VERY), then nyc will win, with Hydroxide_NYC and schultmc
[22:08:57] * h01ger really doubts boston would have a bad localteam. NYC is close and similar. and MITs debian community is biig
[22:08:57] <Ganneff> if we take in all volunteers we have the same fight as for food/network
[22:09:29] <ari_BOS> it may seem like our localteam is not involved, but it's just that i'm the one coordinating things back and forth from irc so they don't have to be on yet another channel just for the bid
[22:09:54] <Ganneff> ari_BOS: local team i meant as in "participated in prior dc orga somehow"
[22:09:56] <Hydroxide_NYC> our channel is actually a great center for coordination
[22:10:06] <ari_BOS> Ganneff: then that part nyc would win on
[22:10:09] <Ganneff> #topic discussion
[22:10:17] <Ganneff> ari_BOS: yes, if we take it that strict
[22:10:29] <MrBeige_NYC> my general procedure is a) go meet someone b) dump all info into irc
[22:10:38] <moray> ari_BOS: right, whereas the NYC guys seem to have already let it take over their lives, discussing on their channel all day :)
[22:10:40] <ari_BOS> Ganneff: but that wasn't the only point
[22:10:58] <ari_BOS> moray: that's basically true for us too, but our channel has been private for the bid
[22:11:10] <Ganneff> ok. this wont settle this issue.
[22:11:13] <ari_BOS> right
[22:11:29] <Ganneff> can both bids please point one topic they think we should discuss and rate according to our schema?
[22:12:13] <ari_BOS> so i'd probably go with local free software community
[22:12:17] <ari_BOS> for obvious reasons
[22:12:24] <ari_BOS> not just local technical community
[22:12:32] <Hydroxide_NYC> and I'd go with interesting things to do in the local city
[22:12:40] <MrBeige_NYC> and which city will attract more attendees from outside?
[22:12:42] <ari_BOS> which nyc would obviously win on
[22:12:46] <MrBeige_NYC> as opposed to those already there
[22:12:58] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: well, it's still valid. tourism is a component of why people go places
[22:13:03] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: even for debconfs
[22:13:05] <MrBeige_NYC> how many mit people would *not* spend a few weeks in new york for free?
[22:13:08] <ari_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: ok, i'm just saying
[22:13:21] <ari_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: almost nobody from boston got sponsored at DC7
[22:13:24] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: I do think it's an advantage for us, yes.
[22:13:29] <ari_BOS> so it's not like anybody's expecting it to be free
[22:13:50] <Ganneff> ok. so topic one would be "local foss community", topic two "what can you do outside debconf"?
[22:13:54] <MrBeige_NYC> ari_BOS: does sponsorship really matter in this case with it being as close?
[22:13:56] <Hydroxide_NYC> sure
[22:14:08] * h01ger doesnt see that big diff in #4 and #8. but then i'd also say that NYC is slighty better in food+stuff (not important^wa priotity for debconf) while MIT has more "geek-cred" as biella put it, which i think is the deciding factor for me. i think i'd rather go to dc10 in boston than in ncy (though i really dont know if i'll go)
[22:14:25] <ari_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: no, since it's plenty cheap either way
[22:14:38] <Hydroxide_NYC> http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf10/NewYork has a long list of local tech/foss community groups
[22:14:48] <Hydroxide_NYC> bgupta: is actively involved in many of them, including NYLUG
[22:14:49] <Ganneff> how do the two bids rate the two extra topics * FOR THE OTHER BID *?
[22:15:09] <h01ger> Hydroxide_NYC, we have a lug or 10 in hamburg too. but waaay many things come from mit
[22:15:13] <ari_BOS> i'd rate nyc 0 for the first, 1 for the second
[22:15:21] * h01ger disgusts his engrish
[22:15:21] <Ganneff> #topic local foss community | what can you do outside debconf
[22:15:31] <ari_BOS> h01ger: germanish :)
[22:15:36] <Ganneff> nyc, how do you rate bos?
[22:15:40] <Hydroxide_NYC> heh, I'd rate boston 1 for the first, 0 for the second
[22:15:43] <Ganneff> yay
[22:15:44] <Ganneff> tie
[22:15:45] <Hydroxide_NYC> but I'd also rate nyc 1 for the first
[22:15:47] <Ganneff> i so knew this
[22:15:49] <Hydroxide_NYC> yes
[22:15:49] <Hydroxide_NYC> :)
[22:15:49] <ari_BOS> surprise
[22:15:57] <Hydroxide_NYC> I'd say
[22:16:03] <Hydroxide_NYC> what do the non-bid-affiliated people want?
[22:16:10] <Ganneff> guys, isnt there a big hotel in the middle between your two cities?
[22:16:20] <moray> what will the bid teams feel if the other one wins?
[22:16:22] <ari_BOS> connecticut sucks
[22:16:23] <MrBeige_NYC> I would like to point out
[22:16:41] <MrBeige_NYC> how many small areas we yielded on in the discussion on all the points
[22:16:53] <Hydroxide_NYC> Ganneff: ari_BOS and I can agree that the middle between our cities would not be a good place :)
[22:16:57] <MrBeige_NYC> which are all real benefits for us
[22:17:01] <ari_BOS> moray: i'm already extremely happy it's going to be in the US, and in the northeast no less
[22:17:02] <Ganneff> oh. consens.
[22:17:20] <ari_BOS> :)
[22:17:22] <mako_BOS> MrBeige_NYC: we've all made compromises :)
[22:17:25] <Hydroxide_NYC> moray: I'd be willing to go to boston and help out with a dc10 in boston
[22:17:30] <Ganneff> lets try something unexpected: would any bid step back for the other now? BOS? NYC?
[22:17:39] <mako_BOS> i've said the same thing about a DC10 in nyc
[22:17:48] <ari_BOS> i don't think we're willing to step back having come this far
[22:18:01] <ari_BOS> i really think the local free software community would tip the scales
[22:18:10] <Hydroxide_NYC> ari_BOS: I think there's a great free software community here
[22:18:14] <Hydroxide_NYC> don't forget the HOPE conference in 2010
[22:18:20] <Hydroxide_NYC> which will be lots of great geek/hacker stuff in NYC
[22:18:21] <mako_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: this is true, but they're not really comperable
[22:18:26] <Hydroxide_NYC> that's very very worth attending
[22:18:34] <Hydroxide_NYC> if feasible we'll coordinate dates
[22:18:49] <h01ger> Hydroxide_NYC, while i think that HOPE is great, i dont think that compares.
[22:19:01] <Hydroxide_NYC> but, as a practical matter of resolving this, I think all of our bid team people and all of boston's bid team people shut up
[22:19:04] <moray> mako_BOS: I'd assume that Boston does better on famous people and New York better on raw numbers there
[22:19:04] <Hydroxide_NYC> *should
[22:19:10] <Hydroxide_NYC> and then let everyone else decide
[22:19:16] <Hydroxide_NYC> just the orga team people, no local team people
[22:19:18] <ari_BOS> moray: if you're only counting free software people
[22:19:22] <Ganneff> ok. i cant think of any reasonable way to find a consensus. all criteria i can come up with will be about similar. thats why i asked if one steps back. i dont want to roll the dice.
[22:19:24] <mako_BOS> moray: in free software? that's never been my experience
[22:19:45] <MrBeige_NYC> suppose we had a global-team only discussion ?
[22:19:49] <Hydroxide_NYC> that's what I'm suggesting, yes
[22:19:50] <mako_BOS> moray: we have more people at weekly free software meetups that at most big nyc things i organized
[22:19:51] <Ganneff> i also think there isnt much more to add from both teams.
[22:19:52] <moray> do the bid teams have any useful suggestion on solving this beyond "let our side win"?
[22:19:56] <ari_BOS> do we need to postpone this?
[22:19:59] <marga> We would prefer you people to be involved.
[22:20:04] <moray> I'm not sure postponing will help
[22:20:09] <Ganneff> ari_BOS: no postpone. wont gain us anything
[22:20:11] <MrBeige_NYC> yes, I vote no postponing
[22:20:13] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: bgupta goes to lots of huge NYLUG and other things
[22:20:18] <ari_BOS> ok
[22:20:22] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: it does exist
[22:20:35] <MrBeige_NYC> what if we had 10 minutes for only global team to discuss, and then let locals come back in ?
[22:20:35] <Hydroxide_NYC> mako_BOS: he just gave a great presentation about debian on android that made it into eweek.com
[22:20:37] <h01ger> a GR to decide?
[22:20:40] * h01ger runs and hides
[22:20:44] <mako_BOS> Hydroxide_NYC: sure, i went to nylug when i lived there (and gave talks there). i'm speaking from a high level of involvement in both communities here
[22:20:44] <moray> so if we assume the bids are effectively tied, how would the bid teams suggest choosing a winner?
[22:20:59] <Ganneff> i think its global team decision, at this point.
[22:21:02] <MrBeige_NYC> I think global-only discussion period, and then bring us back in
[22:21:04] <ari_BOS> rock paper scissors
[22:21:09] <MrBeige_NYC> if there are any more questions
[22:21:10] <ari_BOS> i do agree with global-only
[22:21:13] * Hydroxide_NYC agrees
[22:21:14] * h01ger nods MrBeige_NYC
[22:21:26] <MrBeige_NYC> or, locals only speak if direct question asked
[22:21:35] <MrBeige_NYC> *direct*
[22:21:38] <Ganneff> i wont devoice, we are adults and can keep quiet.
[22:21:40] <Hydroxide_NYC> ok
[22:22:05] <marga> Maybe we can voice some other orga person? So that everybody who's been quiet can give their opinion?
[22:22:09] <mako_BOS> i'm happy making any difficult decision someone elses ;)
[22:22:16] <marga> everybody from the orga team, I mean.
[22:22:36] <Ganneff> dont do normal chatter please, but everyone from orga can speak now if its for this topic.
[22:22:39] <moray> any other 'global orga' type people here who've been quiet so far?
[22:22:52] <Ganneff> #topic global orga team only
[22:23:37] <Ganneff> as one that pretty loudly spoke against the US for a DC, so sure not having any bounds to a venue - my vote would be for NYC
[22:23:49] <moray> Ganneff: can you say why?
[22:24:18] <zer0mdq> i think the 5. about food could finally break the tie
[22:24:20] <Ganneff> its not really easy to write down, its mostly a feeling i have.
[22:24:48] <Ganneff> by them being the first us bid here, i think. against all the negative responses (certainly from me too)
[22:24:49] <zer0mdq> both have lot to offer but i think nyc have better prices if we look near CU
[22:25:03] <ana> overall NYC team seemed more commited and active only judging for _this_ meeting
[22:25:06] <Ganneff> (here as in this year)
[22:25:14] <zer0mdq> ana: +1
[22:25:22] <marga> Ok, as I see it, NYC has quite a big advantage regarding accommodation, and it can't be ignored. Personally, I'd rather go to MIT, because it's really cool. But I think for DebConf purposes, NYC is better.
[22:26:05] <Ganneff> moray: whats your take?
[22:26:19] <moray> I'm unsure between the places; on this question, I've been very impressed with the NYC team, but I know there are lots of good Debian people in Boston
[22:26:39] <moray> I've been to both cities, and think either would be a good venue
[22:26:47] * h01ger would prefer MIT. mostly because of the "geek cred" factor, eg i think it could be hugely beneficial for debian to meet the FSF. but then only 200 people on campus..
[22:26:53] <moray> I guess on a personal travel level I'd rather spend more time in NYC
[22:27:01] <bdale> fwiw, I've commented to a couple people that I think NYC gets a lot of credit for boldly proposing a conf in the US when they knew it wouldn't be popular. So my personal sense of fairness suggests that BOS should have to have a clearly superior bid to unseat them. Feels like a strange way to make a *final* decision, though.
[22:27:14] <moray> i.e. the extra outside stuff in NYC would make me more motivated to deal with US border stupidity
[22:27:30] <Ganneff> so, taking this, its me, marga, ana, moray speaking for nyc, h01ger for bos right now?
[22:27:30] * h01ger also has been to both cities and is not sure if NYCs size is a bonus.
[22:27:46] <edrz> I've personally felt that NYC is more organized, open and serious than BOS.
[22:28:29] <Ganneff> lets leave this a minute more for anyone who wants to speak up, but currently it seems to be pretty much based for NYC
[22:29:08] <zer0mdq> edrz: i wouldn't say that NYC is more serious than BOS
[22:29:32] <zer0mdq> they both put out some serious work for the bids
[22:29:33] <edrz> zer0mdq: ok. but still more well prepared and organized and open.
[22:29:34] <Ganneff> i do think they both put a lot of work and effort in. just a little difference in how it was seen from others.
[22:29:39] * h01ger nods zer0mdq. thats just ari as usual ;)
[22:30:00] <zer0mdq> but i find more prepared the NYC guys
[22:30:03] <Ganneff> ok. the minute is gone. noone any further comments that will throw this around?
[22:30:04] <bdale> edrz: hard to assess 'open' at this stage, really
[22:30:17] <Ganneff> cos if not i would say its NYC for DebConf10
[22:30:31] <ari_BOS> um we have sailing? :)
[22:30:35] <edrz> on a personal level, I i can do much more to help with arranging Videoteam stuff in NYC than i could for bos.
[22:30:47] <micah> shizzle, sailing is pretty hot
[22:30:49] * bdale will attend in either location
[22:30:51] <ana> edrz: that is a very important point too
[22:31:06] <Ganneff> i think it settles down, i dont see complaints.
[22:31:13] <xxv_BOS> The GPL came from Boston? ;-)
[22:31:14] * h01ger waves
[22:31:21] <bdale> xxv_BOS: that's debatable
[22:31:28] <mako_BOS> alright then :)
[22:31:31] <edrz> xxv_BOS: and is defended in CU. :-D
[22:31:36] <bdale> xxv_BOS: Stallman was there, but there was a lot of help from legal in NY
[22:31:37] <Ganneff> BOS: thanks for your bid, i hope you will bid again some time in the future. you sure did great work.
[22:31:46] <ari_BOS> congrats NYC
[22:31:47] <Ganneff> nyc: welcome, debconf 10 venue.
[22:31:57] <mako> thanks everyone
[22:31:59] <Ganneff> welcome to a lot of work
[22:32:02] <Ganneff> #topic NYC it is
[22:32:03] <mako> looking forard to DC10 in NYC :)
[22:32:05] <Ganneff> #endmeeting
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