18:04:53 <moray> #startmeeting DebConf12 global team meeting
18:04:53 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Mar 28 18:04:53 2012 UTC.  The chair is moray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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18:05:01 <MeetBot> meeting
18:05:01 <MeetBot> AbsintheSyringe aliceinwire allison alucardn2 amaya AndrewLee azeem bdale beraldo_ bgupta blarson brother- bubulle_ Caroll cate Clint cpt_nemo dam darst dkg edrz elsimio faw FBI fil Ganneff gaudenz gismo gregoa Guest8027 gwolf h01ger Hydroxide jeremyb jimbodoors
18:05:01 <MeetBot> Kaare karora kevinmoilar leogg lilix lucas MadameZou madduck marga maxy MeetBot moray msantana n0rman nattie nomada nomadium OdyX paravoid paulproteus rmayorga schultmc schultmc_ sgran simonft Sledge taffit tatotat tiago tiago- Tincho tokkee xamanu XTaran
18:05:01 <MeetBot> meeting
18:05:08 <moray> #topic Venue
18:05:15 <leogg> hola!
18:05:34 <leogg> Before we start we recommend you to open up the following sources of information:
18:05:39 <n0rman> hola!
18:05:44 <leogg> * budget-estimate.ods in the debconf-data repository.
18:05:54 <leogg> * Wikipage about pros and cons of both venues: http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/VenueMatrix
18:06:14 <h01ger> hi
18:06:21 <leogg> we're going to start by taking a look at the CP venue
18:06:45 <leogg> We had a meeting with the staff at the CP hotel. They gave us a 20% discount that will be counted as sponsorship (Gold level)
18:07:02 <leogg> They told us we need to make a reservation/block rooms mid-April
18:07:23 <leogg> We  have an estimated budget of USD177K using almost exclusively the CP hotel and convention center and USD155K with the hacklabs at the MT hotel
18:07:50 <leogg> Please  beware that these costs includes everything (accommodation, venue,  food, travel sponsorship, connectivity and other costs)
18:08:06 <leogg> We also had a very productive meeting with the MT hotel
18:08:17 <h01ger> and 79k USD and 47k USD without _any_ housing+travel sponsoring
18:08:28 <leogg> h01ger, that's right
18:08:33 <h01ger> the MT hotel is close to which venue?
18:08:42 <gwolf> o/
18:08:45 <leogg> h01ger, close to CP venue
18:09:01 <leogg> The MT hotel is working on minor accessibility issues they have (ramp at the front entrance, levels at the pool/dining area)
18:09:17 <h01ger> leogg, do you have an estimate how much sponsorship money we collected so far?
18:09:20 <leogg> If  we choose MT, we'll have the whole hotel fully at our disposal,  including any special needs we might have (as a side note, owner is a  geek and Linux user, so that's a plus for us)
18:09:32 <leogg> h01ger, n0rman should know
18:09:40 <gwolf> travel sponsorship is included in this 177K/155K? How much travel sponsorship?
18:09:51 <leogg> gwolf, 40K USD
18:09:54 <h01ger> leogg, we wont choose MT. we will choose UCA or CP. (right?)
18:10:05 <gwolf> (IMO we *need* housing, but we offer travel sponsorship as much as we can... So I'd rather divide them)
18:10:10 <leogg> h01ger, MT is only for accomodation
18:10:32 <leogg> h01ger, and additional hack spaces (if it's needed)
18:10:43 * h01ger thinks these budgets have also several small things missing, which i think might add to 10k. but thats for both venues. and just saying. i shouldnt say it but add what i have in mind to the spreadsheet
18:10:52 <h01ger> if i had a quiet minute to have mind ;M)
18:11:05 <h01ger> leogg, so MT would work for UCA too?
18:11:15 <h01ger> cause: <leogg> h01ger, close to CP venue
18:11:21 <leogg> h01ger, if we use MT for UCA we'll need buses
18:11:36 <leogg> h01ger, MT is ~3km away from UCA
18:11:43 <h01ger> ic, ok
18:11:51 <moray> through "non-walking area" :)
18:11:52 <leogg> h01ger, and 300mts. away from CP
18:11:59 <leogg> moray, that's right
18:12:15 <moray> the 300m is already a bit much in the "hacklabs in MT, talks in CP" proposal
18:12:17 <leogg> we'll absolutely need buses if we choose MT for UCA
18:12:24 <gwolf> (almost every time I read MT and CP other things come to my mind :-/ But well, that's my mind working strangely)
18:12:34 <leogg> moray, yep, that's true
18:12:46 <gwolf> We *have* had venues with >300m between auditoriums and hacklabs, but yes, people always complained about it
18:12:49 <h01ger> honestly, when i looked at the venue matrix for the first time i thought: "so what. we dont have the money for CP, so IMO there is hardly anything to decide. we *need* to take the cheaper option and hope to get as much money as we can and not take from debian
18:12:50 <leogg> MT=Mansión Teodolinda, CP=Crowne Plaza
18:13:11 <gwolf> leogg: right. Not Muñoz Torrero nor Campus Party :)
18:13:14 <h01ger> deciding CP now, IMO would mean to decide to take lots of money from debian. which IMO we cannot just decide
18:13:28 <leogg> h01ger, I'll go on with the UCA venue so we can compare later, if that's ok?
18:13:29 <moray> h01ger: right.  there is no "MT, talks nearby but not CP" option
18:13:42 <moray> yup, we'll be quiet, say when you want input again :)
18:13:51 <h01ger> and on the MT point: if we need busses and there are 3 other hotels close by: why choose MT then...
18:13:52 <leogg> :)
18:13:53 <gwolf> moray: but there is a "sleep at MT; everything elsewhere"
18:13:59 <h01ger> leogg, sure
18:14:05 <leogg> so, about UCA...
18:14:08 <gwolf> (which I would not prefer)
18:14:09 <gwolf> so, UCA.
18:14:18 <leogg> We  had a couple of meetings with the vice-dean, members of the Faculty of  Science, Technology and Environment and with the administrative  vice-dean
18:14:29 <leogg> The University authorities are very excited to work with us and confirmed their full support for the event
18:14:40 <h01ger> awesome.
18:14:44 <leogg> They will rent us three conference rooms for talks, one room for hacklabs and a small space for us to eat - http://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf12/Venue/UCA#Rooms
18:15:03 <leogg> UCA  has to charge us, because of expenses for electricity and lack of  possible income through renting during these two weeks, but they give us 70% discount  that would be counted as sponsorship (Platinum level)
18:15:22 <leogg> One important thing is that we'll have full access to the facilities 24/7
18:15:44 <leogg> We  have to estimated budgets for the UCA venue: USD157K using the hotels  around UCA and USD144K making extensive use of the MT hotel (3kms. away)  - that means that we have to rent buses.We  are more flexible with the  food at UCA, because we could organize it completely ourselves. At the  end it is a lot more work. But it is possible to get the price down (see  alternative food option in the  budget estimation), we guess the  cheapest option coul
18:15:45 <leogg> d get down to 138K or 125K (using MT for hacklabs).
18:15:47 <gwolf> how small is the "small place to eat"? Do you think logistics will work out fine with it?
18:16:12 <leogg> gwolf, very small... it will be difficult, but we have time to see other options
18:16:19 <gwolf> This budget is again including travel sponsorship? (so I deduce 40K for my inner calculations?)
18:16:20 <h01ger> #info for dc13: dont offer venue-discounts as sponsorhip. or at least this should be discussed first. (and i accept things as they are for dc12)
18:16:34 <leogg> gwolf, that's right
18:16:35 <gwolf> h01ger: right
18:16:44 <leogg> Most  crucial problem with the UCA is the non-existing accessible bathroom.  We'd have to invent something or last (and possible) option is the  Seminole hotel (300mts away).
18:17:03 <gwolf> #info Eating spaces provided by UCA are very small and will be difficult, but we can investigate on other options
18:17:16 <gwolf> yes, I do feel that as a VERY bad issue
18:17:26 <leogg> gwolf, indeed
18:17:27 <gwolf> (bathroom)
18:17:46 <h01ger> housing is quite very expensive..
18:17:55 <moray> gwolf: still, the realistic alternative has hacklabs 300m away instead
18:18:02 <moray> (for everyone)
18:18:06 <gwolf> leogg: Given we are 3Km away, i'd completely drop using MT for hacklabs if we are at UCA
18:18:11 <leogg> h01ger, the UCA area is expensive
18:18:16 * h01ger nods gwolf
18:18:19 <gwolf> moray: the realistic alternative if we are at CP, that is
18:18:22 <moray> gwolf: I don't think MT-hacklabs + UCA is propose
18:18:23 <moray> +d
18:18:27 <h01ger> (dropping MT hacklabs for UCA)
18:18:36 <gwolf> moray: leogg mentioned it'd be 125K
18:18:54 <moray> ah yes, they're giving even more options again :)
18:18:59 <gwolf> :)
18:19:08 <leogg> so, it seems we're down to two options? the cheaper CP option and the expensive UCA option?
18:19:14 <h01ger> leogg, its just soo strange that the debconf in the poorest country is budget-estimated atm as the most expensive..
18:19:17 <gwolf> leogg: if there's something we can learn from Ubuntu is that users like not having options. So don't give us more options ;-)
18:19:20 <moray> (how about MT for hacklabs, Banja Luka for sleeping, and Mexico DF for talks?)
18:19:41 <leogg> h01ger, we don't have much infrastructure for this kind of events... so it's expensive
18:19:43 <gwolf> moray: I think we have wireless connectivity around the tree now in Mexico, so it's doable
18:19:49 <h01ger> leogg, why do you think CP is cheaper? i see different numbers in the budget..
18:19:50 <leogg> gwolf, :)
18:19:59 <h01ger> gwolf, \o/
18:20:07 <leogg> h01ger, I meant the cheaper CP option
18:20:19 <h01ger> leogg, yes, why? budget says different
18:20:30 <xamanu> h01ger: the cheaper option from the two CP proposals
18:20:45 <h01ger> ah
18:20:50 <leogg> h01ger, I'm not saying it's cheaper than UCA, I'm saying that the best option is proposal 2
18:21:07 <gwolf> /methinks that if we are to give full and thick sponsor status to a random entity that will get a sh!tload of money from us, I'd much prefer it to be a university and not a transnational hotel company
18:21:18 <h01ger> leogg, that is 80k without housing or travel?
18:21:22 <h01ger> or which 2nd option?
18:21:27 <h01ger> me looking at  the spreadsheet again
18:21:39 <leogg> h01ger, 75K
18:21:44 <gwolf> wasn't the difference between the two CP options having the hacklabs at MT or in CP?
18:21:45 <h01ger> sorry
18:21:52 <h01ger> me has !wide-screen display
18:22:11 <xamanu> gwolf: yes
18:22:12 <leogg> gwolf, and using MT more extensively for accomodation
18:22:25 <h01ger> leogg, why do you think its better?
18:22:32 <h01ger> and where do you think will the money come from?
18:22:57 <leogg> h01ger, I don't think it's a better option than UCA
18:23:15 <leogg> h01ger, I think that of both CP proposals, the cheaper one is best
18:23:20 <h01ger> ah
18:23:22 <leogg> because we have no mone
18:23:23 <leogg> y
18:23:26 <h01ger> yeah
18:23:26 <leogg> :)
18:23:27 <gwolf> I'll try to cut this a bit shorter
18:23:28 <moray> leogg: are you waiting to give more information still?
18:23:31 <gwolf> barring the problem with the bathroom
18:23:39 <leogg> moray, no.. I'm done :)
18:23:42 <moray> right
18:23:43 <gwolf> is there any reason we might prefer having DC at CP?
18:23:48 * h01ger thinks bathroom in the hotel is more important than in the venue...
18:23:52 <moray> leogg: just checking before we rule things out
18:23:53 <h01ger> way more.
18:23:55 <gwolf> AIUI right now UCA is cheaper and nicer
18:23:58 <leogg> gwolf, accesibility?
18:24:11 <moray> h01ger: oh definitely, though we should try to find a solution nearer, obviously
18:24:11 <gwolf> leogg: yes, I wrote that :)
18:24:14 <leogg> gwolf, but UCA is indeed nicer and cheaper
18:24:17 <leogg> :)
18:24:22 <gwolf> leogg: our only problem with accessibility right now is the bathroom, right?
18:24:43 <moray> can anyone give an argument for one of the options *except* "UCA and nearby hotels"?
18:25:01 <gwolf> And... I'll be honest with this: For ~US$30K difference, and if there is no other way out, I'm... almost willing to accept we'll send people 300m away for the bathroom
18:25:02 <leogg> gwolf, that's right
18:25:03 <moray> MT sounds good, but there's no sane MT-including option that I can see
18:25:20 <gwolf> Right, I think we should basically be discussing UCA+MT or UCA+3hotels
18:25:37 <leogg> gwolf, I agree
18:25:40 <moray> I really don't think buses will work
18:25:47 <gwolf> Unless anybody contradicts me, bringing up again CP just means noise
18:26:12 <gwolf> right - buses sound like a potential problem, very easy to turn into a real one
18:26:13 <moray> gwolf: right, I'm happy if someone wants to argue for it, but if no one wants it there's no point continuing to consider it in this meeting
18:26:18 <moray> (CP)
18:26:47 <moray> even in the best case, buses will annoy attendees
18:26:52 * h01ger nods gwolf
18:27:04 <xamanu> moray: I agree. Buses would make everything uncomfortable. And the price w/o housing is the same in both options. If people would have to pay for their hotel, i think, they would prefer one of the nearer hotels.
18:27:06 <leogg> I'm for scrapping CP and moving on
18:27:09 <moray> (and probably lead to walking through the non-walking area when they don't turn up)
18:27:11 <gwolf> #info So it is UCA, scraping CP.
18:27:42 <moray> #chair gwolf
18:27:42 <MeetBot> Current chairs: gwolf moray
18:27:45 <moray> #chair h01ger
18:27:45 <MeetBot> Current chairs: gwolf h01ger moray
18:27:56 <h01ger> if CP gave us the venue for free.... ;)
18:28:05 <moray> #chair leogg
18:28:05 <MeetBot> Current chairs: gwolf h01ger leogg moray
18:28:12 <leogg> moray, taxis are cheap here... USD1-1.50 to UCA from MT... that could be an option
18:28:15 <gwolf> #info The discussion is now between UCA+MT (needing buses) or UCA+3hotels (more expensive)
18:28:33 <moray> leogg: we know from the past that people strongly prefer having things close together
18:28:48 <gwolf> leogg: 300 people, sharing taxis between (say) 3, means 100 trips to get to UCA. 100 trips back
18:28:53 <moray> I think people will be disappointed to see buses suggested, and complain loudly at the first problem
18:28:56 <leogg> moray, then MT is not an option
18:29:00 <gwolf> That is, 200 * US$1.5 every day
18:29:18 <leogg> gwolf, buses + taxis?
18:29:19 <moray> gwolf: I think the local taxi prices are normally per person
18:29:25 <gwolf> not terrible money, but too much. And I don't know if all of Managua's taxis will be available for us
18:29:32 <leogg> yes, per person
18:29:33 <gwolf> moray: that's not usual in this continent
18:29:48 <moray> gwolf: right, but your sum wasn't that way :)
18:29:48 <gwolf> oh, so that's rather US$600 per day for transport
18:30:05 <leogg> we have a local taxi company not far from MT
18:30:09 <gwolf> So, for ~US$1200 we could buy an old van and drive them ourselves \o/
18:30:14 <xamanu> gwolf: renting buses will be a lot cheaper
18:30:35 <xamanu> as leogg said: buses + taxis
18:30:38 <moray> right.  for trips at strange times of day, people would probably take taxis
18:30:43 <moray> as we can't run buses very 2 minutes
18:30:48 <xamanu> right
18:30:48 <gwolf> xamanu: might be, but I also think buses is not a good option
18:30:58 <moray> but, it's not going to be a good option any way round
18:31:01 <gwolf> xamanu: say, we have a set of buses at 10AM
18:31:10 <gwolf> so, maybe they will leave mostly-empty given the time
18:31:22 <gwolf> so we scale them down and get 2 buses instead of 5
18:31:25 <moray> at some point you will get a rush of people wanting to go
18:31:31 <gwolf> and next day they are over-full
18:31:34 <moray> but most of the day no one
18:31:41 <moray> and yes, different times each day
18:31:44 <moray> depending on talk content etc.
18:31:45 <gwolf> I think it mixes in logistics we want to avoid
18:31:56 <moray> (and on how much beer the night before)
18:32:07 <leogg> buses are not a great option, but we need to see if it's worth saving us ~13K with that option
18:32:11 <gwolf> moray: (and you have not tasted Nicaraguan rum...)
18:32:38 <gwolf> leogg: how do you think renting buses for 300 people at different times during the day cost us for just one week?
18:32:43 <leogg> gwolf, yes... buses will require additional work from local team
18:33:00 <gwolf> (or two even0
18:33:01 <gwolf> )
18:33:12 <leogg> gwolf, around USD50-75 per day/bus
18:33:23 <gwolf> how many runs are you considering in that figure?
18:33:40 <xamanu> half an hour between 8am-10pm
18:33:41 <leogg> gwolf, using the bus during 12 hours
18:33:48 <gwolf> including gas?
18:33:59 <gwolf> running a bus for 12 hours requires quite a bit of gas
18:34:18 <gwolf> I guess we'd need two buses at least, right?
18:34:29 <xamanu> and when conference starts and ends (8am-10am; 5:30pm to 9pm) we could have more buses available (when they are full with people they leave)
18:34:52 <xamanu> gwolf: two from MT and one big yellow school bus maybe
18:34:58 <leogg> gwolf, yes... including gas if we use the MT buses
18:35:07 <leogg> and paying the driver
18:35:30 <moray> but, imagine on the first days everyone wants to go for the earliest talk
18:35:38 <moray> you will need a *lot* of buses, or a long period to transport them
18:35:42 <gwolf> well, keeping numbers simple (hopefully not too simplistic), it would be USD62.5 (midway between 50 and 75) * 2 * 14
18:35:56 <gwolf> US$1750
18:36:09 <gwolf> so staying at MT would save us ~10K
18:36:27 <leogg> gwolf, the ~2K are included in the budget
18:36:35 <gwolf> ok
18:36:43 <gwolf> ...but I'm still uneasy about the uncertainty
18:37:30 <moray> for "only" 10K it sounds a lot of definite annoyance and possible disaster :/
18:37:41 <xamanu> +1
18:37:51 <gwolf> h01ger: you are the most money-conservative
18:37:52 <moray> I'd rather sponsor fewer people and let the people present enjoy the conference more
18:37:57 <gwolf> ...what's your POV?
18:38:10 <h01ger> i agree
18:38:18 <gwolf> So, UCA+3 hotels it is?
18:38:25 <h01ger> sounds best
18:38:34 <h01ger> so far ;)
18:38:38 <leogg> I think that's the best option for us
18:38:40 <gwolf> leogg, what about you? We need all the pessimists to voice :)
18:38:43 * xamanu is very happy
18:38:44 <gwolf> great
18:38:56 * gwolf as well
18:39:17 <gwolf> #info We have decided: UCA + 3hotels
18:39:19 * h01ger wonders why the bus option was considered. to save more money?
18:39:32 <leogg> h01ger, yes, that was the idea
18:39:35 <gwolf> h01ger: staying at MT would be ~US$13K cheaper
18:39:55 * h01ger nods
18:40:40 <moray> xamanu: so, we still don't have money of course, but it seems like this option has a "degrade gracefully" behaviour
18:40:53 <moray> without a sudden change in the plan based on how much money we actually get
18:41:02 <moray> but instead we can gradually sponsor more stuff
18:41:22 <gwolf> right. I think it's the most reliable way.
18:41:31 * leogg nods
18:41:45 <n0rman> don't we have surplus from previous DebConf?
18:41:46 <gwolf> And we budgeted for 40K travel sponsorship - that still is a good cushion (although we should aim to cover it)
18:42:30 <moray> n0rman: it's all Debian money.  we can *possibly* get some extra if we really needed it, but that's not a good thing to expect
18:42:41 <n0rman> moray: right
18:42:50 <moray> especially as next year will be even more expensive
18:43:04 <leogg> how much money do have we so far?
18:43:30 <n0rman> according to files, right now we have 43K
18:43:55 <h01ger> n0rman, so no we dont
18:43:58 <leogg> so we're not there yet
18:44:12 <h01ger> but already 43k.
18:44:40 <leogg> and we have only three months left
18:44:44 <moray> so, the next step is to 100% confirm (and pay some deposit, if possible) on UCA?
18:45:01 <leogg> moray, and hotels
18:45:10 <moray> you want to sign some documents, but it's actively useful to us if you can pay UCA something in advance
18:45:14 <moray> it makes it more concrete
18:45:44 <leogg> moray, UCA didn't mention anything about paying in advance but we'll ask them
18:45:47 <moray> leogg: right.   but on hotels you want to keep options open as we don't know numbers, and don't want to commit to a big payment from DebConf
18:46:18 <xamanu> moray: the more we wait, the less possible is to have people sticking together
18:46:27 <leogg> moray, should we just block rooms now with an option to unblock them later if not needed?
18:46:44 <xamanu> we have to open registration soon! this way we can get more security in advance to book the hotels ASAP
18:46:51 <gwolf> leogg: if it's possible to do so, yes. But we don't have numbers yet
18:46:59 <gwolf> xamanu: I agree. We want to have registration open very soon!
18:47:19 <gwolf> FWIW I will be on vacation a portion of next week (Mon-Wed /methinks)
18:47:20 <leogg> gwolf, right
18:47:25 <gwolf> So I'll try to work on it before
18:47:35 <moray> yes
18:47:43 <moray> attendees are wanting to register, and wanting the CFP
18:47:46 <leogg> we all are going to be on vacation next week :)
18:47:57 <h01ger> we can open registration now, cant we? wasnt venue decision the blocker?
18:48:14 <xamanu> gwolf: can we?
18:48:23 <gwolf> h01ger: no, please wait a little bit
18:48:28 <gwolf> I want to check some Penta flags
18:48:31 <moray> h01ger: I think so, but we need to decide what accommodation options to list, for example still
18:48:38 <gwolf> But I think we can leave MeetBot to rest for the day :)
18:48:41 <xamanu> for the website we need to prepare some texts, so some day we need here
18:48:46 <moray> if we have this option, we need to know the prices for each accommodation choice
18:48:57 <h01ger> moray, we do have estimates
18:49:01 <moray> or, rather, a number that is bigger than the number
18:49:03 <leogg> moray, I'll talk to the hotels
18:49:04 <moray> h01ger: right
18:49:05 <h01ger> we should ask a bit more for prefessinals
18:49:07 <gwolf> #info Registration should open SOON!
18:49:10 <gwolf> #endmeeting