17:00:07 <moray> #startmeeting DC14 decision meeting
17:00:07 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Apr  5 17:00:07 2013 UTC.  The chair is moray. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:07 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:09 <ultrt> hi, here I am
17:00:12 <rafw> hi
17:00:12 * HuntingBears here
17:00:23 <tiago> hey
17:00:28 <XTaran> Hi.
17:00:29 <moray> #info Agenda is at https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/Bid_process#Venue_decision_meeting
17:00:30 <franj> hi
17:00:44 <erickcion> Hi HuntingBears!
17:01:06 <erickcion> hi franj
17:01:07 * Noodles is here.
17:01:16 <franj> Hi erickcion
17:01:31 <moray> do we have people from both bids yet?
17:01:33 * gwolf is happy we have full presence of both teams :-}
17:01:36 <marga> In the past we have asked people from the bids to add some suffix
17:01:37 * vagrantc lurks
17:01:43 <moray> ah, gwolf implies yes
17:01:45 * gturner here.  Gerald Turner, non-DD, Portland team
17:01:46 <marga> like _US or _VE or similar
17:01:47 <gwolf> marga: and it is a very good idea
17:01:59 <gwolf> USians, VEians: Please!
17:02:01 <erickcion> hi ssolano... if you readme
17:02:03 <marga> I don't know if we want it this time, it's usually easier to follow the discussion.
17:02:15 <marga> Sure, airport codes work too :)
17:02:22 <moray> right, though we also ask for only one or two people to speak from each team
17:02:24 * HuntingBears here, Venezuelan team.
17:02:40 <ssolano> hi i am from venezuela team
17:02:40 <moray> #topic Introduction from each team, and any questions [max. 10 minutes]
17:02:50 <ultrt_MUC> :p
17:02:58 <gwolf> Venezuelans: Add a _VE or so to your names, please!
17:02:58 * vorlon waves
17:03:01 <moray> Ideally by now everyone should already be clear on the bid statuses.  But each team can give a quick introduction about itself, and others quickly ask questions while we wait for everyone to be ready for the main meeting.
17:03:05 <moray> Bid teams, please also decide who will speak for you during the middle part of the meeting, as it's too noisy if everyone jumps in individually.
17:03:06 <franj> here, Venezuela team
17:03:08 <apostols> from Venezuelan: alberkman, HuntingBears, ssolano, franj, echevemaster, Nanreh, erickcion and me
17:03:11 <erickcion> I am from Venezuelam team
17:04:02 <marga> Ok, I think we are ready.  We are in "Introductions".  Have the teams already prepared something?
17:04:05 <erickcion_ve> hi
17:04:07 <moray> marga: yes
17:04:10 <moray> The bid teams already posted links to pages describing how their bid meets points on the the priority list, the weak points in their own bids, and the strong points in other bids:
17:04:15 <moray> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf14/PuertoLaCruz/Checklist
17:04:16 <moray> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf14/Portland/Checklist
17:04:25 <moray> but they can add any "vote for me" introduction they want, quickly
17:04:32 <franj_VE> hi
17:04:43 <vorlon_PDX> vote for us, our beer is the best
17:04:55 <vorlon_PDX> ^D
17:04:57 <vorlon_PDX> :-)
17:05:17 <XTaran> vorlon_PDX: That's not called Budweiser by chance? :)
17:05:20 <moray> and anyone who has questions to teams ... your last chance just now
17:05:36 <Noodles_PDX> XTaran: Portland has much, much better beer than Budweiser.
17:05:37 <vorlon_PDX> XTaran: blasphemy
17:05:38 <marga> Oh, I have questions, but is that during introduction?
17:05:38 <gwolf> I have a something...
17:05:42 <gwolf> almost trivial
17:05:44 <Noodles_PDX> XTaran: The US just doesn't export any of the good stuff.
17:05:52 <moray> marga: officially questions should have been finished by now
17:05:55 <XTaran> Noodles_PDX: :)
17:05:56 <gwolf> but I'd rather wait until the teams introduce and we start discussing "real" isues?
17:05:56 <marga> Please, let's not discuss beer
17:06:10 <marga> moray: it's about the checklist
17:06:19 <XTaran> marga: Just a small warmup. ;-)
17:06:20 <moray> marga: we work through the checklist later
17:06:27 * gwolf ponders and shuts up temporarily ;-)
17:06:28 <moray> marga: but we ought to already have all the necessary information
17:06:49 <moray> marga: not to be asking for it during the checklist check
17:06:56 * bubulle waves........
17:07:20 <gwolf> bubulle: good you could make it! :D
17:07:45 <HuntingBears_VE> Quick Intro VE: Venezuela is a country where interesting things are happening in Free&Open Software and Hardware. Many things can be achieved through Mobile/Tablet local market, and the ongoing free software communities.
17:08:05 <ultrt> bubulle: are you IRCing and running?
17:08:09 <marga> I'm kind of puzzled by what I can or can't ask.  But whatever.
17:08:32 * ana asked a lot of stuff already but no reply, so puzzled too
17:08:45 <moray> ana: right, asking already was the correct thing
17:08:57 <moray> ana: and you're entitled to point to lack of answers as a problem
17:09:04 <vorlon_PDX> to be clear, yes, that was intended as the complete introduction for the Portland team - I think we have laid out the bid in adequate detail on the wiki page, we had good discussions at the last meeting, we are as always happy to answer questions from the team but let's not waste words on a sales pitch
17:09:24 <apostols_VE> Since 2004, Venezuela adopted principalmenete government sector use and development of free technologies, which gave birth to the project Canaima GNU/Linux
17:09:41 <apostols_VE> *mainly
17:10:14 <moray> marga: if you have major questions you think need to be answered, raise them now and maybe we even need to abandon a decision meeting
17:10:31 <moray> marga: but generally, questions are meant to come prior to this meeting
17:11:17 <moray> from the bid process document, we're currently in the first point "    Quick introduction from each team, and quick questions to each team. Ideally by now everyone should already be clear on the bid statuses."
17:11:30 * karora waves
17:11:33 <gwolf> moray: then we should continue to point #2 :)
17:11:42 <moray> gwolf: right, scheduled for :13
17:11:50 <gwolf> hah!
17:11:55 <gwolf> 30 seconds to go...
17:12:22 <moray> Can the bid teams nominate who will speak for them in the next part?
17:12:41 <vorlon_PDX> I believe I'm the fall guy for Portland
17:12:44 <bkerensa_PDX> +1
17:12:45 <moray> (it's easier if they chat on their own channels then put agreed answers here)
17:13:16 <moray> and everyone, again, please read through:
17:13:17 <moray> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf14/PuertoLaCruz/Checklist
17:13:18 <moray> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf14/Portland/Checklist
17:13:33 <moray> we can give a few minutes for that if people need it, but perhaps you already read them earlier
17:13:48 <moray> you should already have read the full bid documents, anyway :)
17:13:55 <HuntingBears_VE> I will speak for _VE in the next part
17:13:58 <moray> ok, thanks
17:14:03 <moray> #topic Priority list
17:14:09 <moray> OK, now we should work through the priority list, considering each item for each bid, and noting areas where there is consensus that bids are stronger than each other.
17:14:12 <moray> This stage is intended to ensure that no important topic is missed, but even if there is agreement on each bid's advantages, coming to a decision isn't a precise calculation, we just want to see which criteria each bid meets, and where we agree that one is ahead.  We don't need to reach consensus on each point, but should try to get through the list quickly.
17:14:23 <moray> If necessary we can return to discuss points more later on.
17:14:47 <moray> 1. "affordable" for both sponsors and attendees
17:15:32 <moray> is there some consensus here?
17:15:35 <ana> I did the calculation when I asked both bids, portland was cheaper
17:15:40 <marga> In this case I think Portland is clearly ahead, the bid that they are presenting (due to the fact that it's in a University) is much cheaper.
17:16:19 <moray> right.  anyone want to argue with that?  the VE hotel prices do look very high, and *as I understand it* there is not yet firm sponsorship for those
17:16:20 <marga> The missing item regarding "monies" in the Portland Checklist is food.
17:16:32 * bdale is here now
17:16:32 <bubulle> +1, though we have uncertainties about govt support for accomodation in VE, am I right?
17:16:40 <marga> bubulle: many
17:16:43 <gwolf> bubulle: right
17:16:44 <ana> too many :)
17:17:21 <gwolf> HuntingBears_VE: Would you commit to some more closed numbers than "US$100 or probably US$50 per person per night (depending on whether we get 50% govt sponsorship"?
17:17:24 * bubulle is now sitting with a glass of great ron from Nicaragua....ready for the meeting
17:17:25 <gwolf> it's too large a difference
17:17:45 <vorlon_PDX> marga: sorry, where do you find this missing?  we have a base quote of 20/person/day for food, with the possibility of negotiating a lower group rate
17:17:59 <moray> gwolf: I don't see how they can improve the numbers during this meeting
17:18:00 <vorlon_PDX> ah, it wasn't copied over to the checklist page, right - apologies
17:18:19 <marga> vorlon_PDX: in the checklist, right.  I know the info is in the wiki.  This was one of the points that I wanted to raise earlier
17:18:21 <vorlon_PDX> (rather, it's listed in point 5 rather than point 1)
17:18:25 <ana> marga++
17:18:34 <gwolf> moray: but they might be able to have something more defined
17:18:37 <gwolf> that's the question
17:18:38 <bdale> caught up on scrollback
17:18:43 <gwolf> they are giving a very large margin
17:18:50 <e1th0r> Hi, sorry for delay
17:19:07 <HuntingBears_VE> is natural to have uncertainties, mostly because of the elections, right? Well, the matter here is FOSS support form the government. As we said before, this is a state policy, it has to pass too many legislations to break FOSS support, even destroy some institutions.
17:19:15 <HuntingBears_VE> e1th0r, /j #debian-ve
17:19:28 <marga> In any case, I think there is consensus that this is a clear point for PDX.  Should we move on?
17:19:33 <ana> if we continue like this, we'll have a 2h meeting. IMHO this is clear, so please let's move on?
17:19:34 <HuntingBears_VE> gwolf, as for the sponsoring ...
17:19:37 <bubulle> ack
17:19:51 <moray> ana: right
17:20:07 <tiago> so next
17:20:13 <moray> 2. strong, mature, experienced local team
17:20:42 <apostols_VE> Unfortunately we do not have accommodation spaces in universities, this is very different in Venezuela. That is why we offered hotel accommodation, which you can get discount for belonging to the Venezuelan government.
17:21:00 <Tincho> sorry guys, my calendar failed to remind me of the meeting
17:21:09 <moray> local teams tied / one ahead -- ?
17:21:19 <ana> portland ahead, sorry
17:21:27 <marga> Yes, I think the same
17:21:36 <XTaran> ana, marga: Why?
17:21:44 * bubulle feels that both teams are experienced in orga stuff. However, Portland ahead because of experience of *debconf* orga stuff
17:21:44 <gwolf> portland ahead
17:21:48 <ana> I have seen easily 5 "portlians" involved here and in the list
17:21:53 <ana> also in their mailing list
17:21:54 <marga> I don't want to hurt any feelings, but the involvement in previous DebConfs is very valuable.
17:22:10 <HuntingBears_VE> gwolf, we cannot commit to a close number. The worse case would be 30% though.
17:22:38 <ana> while in the venezuelan list there are plenty of people who could be anybody and much of them supposedly involved.. I can find their names in any debian list/bts/etc
17:22:44 <tiago> amount of people people living in the city also counts
17:22:49 <moray> ana: can or can't?
17:22:54 <ana> cant*
17:23:00 <gwolf> ... On the second point, I'd also defer to Portland. The experience during the discussion period was quite clear: The Venezuelan team basically didn't join our "usual" ways (i.e. participating in discussions on list, on IRC). And I think it is a fundamental point to say how close they are to the Debian culture :(
17:23:09 <tiago> so i'd say ++ to portland  so far
17:23:12 <bubulle> ana: otoh, many ppl in the nicaragua team were "unknown" before DC12
17:23:20 <marga> gwolf: yes, that's a very important point
17:23:21 <gwolf> (and to forecast compatibility, needed for collaboration)
17:23:34 <gwolf> bubulle: Yes, and I was waiting precisely to that point :)
17:23:40 <gwolf> we have had unknown teams several times
17:23:47 <gwolf> i.e. in Spain, in Bosnia, in Nicaragua
17:23:48 <ana> bubulle: i knew all of them who went to bosnia and hanged in their IRC Channel and met some others
17:23:49 <bubulle> so, well, I have no doubt VE can raise a quite big team....but might be harder to "lead" it the "Debconf way"
17:23:50 <moray> bubulle: I don't think people being unknown is an unsurmountable proble at all, but people having been involved can be a plus, as can having people in the bid city itself
17:24:02 <gwolf> but they have all (quite some time ahead) joined our discussions and channels
17:24:25 <karora> I think they are both fantastic teams.  Well above minimum spec for a debconf, but PDX probably does have a slight edge here also.
17:24:39 <bubulle> more generally, my point was to slightly balance the "portland ahead" evidence on that point, just tjis
17:24:42 <moray> anyway, we don't need to reach 100% consensus on each point, this is all just to cue us into thinking about the right topics
17:24:51 <moray> 3. good working spaces
17:25:14 <bubulle> I'm impressed by both bids, here
17:25:22 <ana> this is almost impossible to know, can we assume they both will give us good spaces?
17:25:30 <bdale> both seem good here
17:25:34 <moray> yup
17:25:35 * marga nods
17:25:41 <gwolf> Without having been there, this could be either a (very good) tie, or slightly  towards the Venezuelan offer
17:25:44 <tiago> yep, both seem great on this
17:25:49 <bdale> move on
17:25:51 <moray> 4. excellent network connectivity
17:26:19 <ana> US university backbone in portland :)
17:26:30 <bubulle> imho, we have a tie here, too (assuming that govt support is there for VE)
17:26:32 <ana> vorlon_PDX: for free I guess?
17:26:43 <bdale> I suspect both bids have good answers here.  The PDX bid networking is a more "known" quantity since the uni is very well connected and it sounds like the VE bid would involve temporary installation?
17:26:57 <vorlon_PDX> ana: that is our understanding, yes
17:27:04 <apostols_VE> ana: Mainly active in Debian have 9 people (featured in the Wiki), the other remaining collaborate with national projects related to Free Software (as Canaima, for example)
17:27:11 <tiago> universities usually have better connections than hotels, but well, both are ok
17:27:23 <HuntingBears_VE> bdale, yes, a direct link by the main ISP provider, CANTV
17:27:27 <XTaran> vorlon_PDX: Also in the accomodation facilities?
17:27:31 <vorlon_PDX> XTaran: yes
17:27:34 <keithp> PSU is on the same network as OSUOSL, which hosts kernel.org
17:27:37 <XTaran> vorlon_PDX: Thx.
17:27:39 <e1th0r_VE> we're working with national telecomunication company for internet conect
17:27:42 <marga> I'd say there's a slight advantage for PDX, but probably not too relevant.
17:27:43 <gwolf> This can be a tie. Of course, PDX has the network _already_ in place and in use, while in VE we'd get it from the ISP (which has always some uncertainty). But it could be an almost-tie IMO
17:27:50 <bdale> ok, both sound like good uplink answers
17:27:51 <moray> ok
17:27:54 <moray> 5. quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity
17:28:12 <marga> This is other point where the teams don't answer what the checklist is asking
17:28:27 <marga> This is about food outside the conference facilities, not the conference food
17:28:28 <bubulle> my "I like things I know less" part would have a preference for VE, here..:-)
17:28:31 <gwolf> moray: 5. refers only to outside sources?
17:28:42 <gwolf> If it is so, I guess it'd be a tie
17:28:42 <vorlon_PDX> I think we've answered what the checklist is asking, but maybe the checklist doesn't ask what it's meant to ask on this point?
17:28:48 <ana> I asked about this, the answers I got from the usians reassure me it will be ok. Not so much about venezuelan
17:28:51 <bdale> I don't know how to judge the on-campus food, but I know off-campus is plentiful and affordable in PDX.  I've never eaten poorly in any latin country, so I suspect the VE bid is fine here too for me.
17:28:56 <moray> gwolf: I think we have argued about precise meaning before, we should clarify some time :)
17:28:56 <gwolf> if it's for conference-provided food, I think Venezuela would have the edge.
17:29:05 <moray> but it definitely *includes* outside
17:29:08 <ana> "venezuelan traditional food" can be great for some but not for everybody, sorry
17:29:11 <gwolf> moray: At least before DC15 decision ;-)
17:29:22 <bubulle> ana: yes, I was about to make that point
17:29:26 <moray> i.e. definitely is not only conference food
17:29:38 <moray> but nearby bars/restaurants etc.
17:29:39 <e1th0r_VE> ana sorry, for the Hotel have food for several peoples
17:29:41 <gwolf> bdale: yes, but it's comparing "generic university cafeteria food" with "generic nice hotel food" :)
17:29:51 <ana> e1th0r_VE: I checked, I am not that convinced :)
17:29:57 <marga> From the checklist, I'm worried about the "food stands"... Are there really no restaurants around?
17:29:58 <bdale> we've had mixed experiences in both kinds of venues
17:29:59 <HuntingBears_VE> ana, it's also on the bid page there are chinese, arab, etc
17:30:08 <vorlon_PDX> there are restaurants
17:30:11 <HuntingBears_VE> *outside the hotel
17:30:12 <e1th0r_VE> so, venezuelan traditional food its very good but its not the only choice
17:30:12 <ana> HuntingBears_VE: I asked some weeks ago, you could have answered there :)
17:30:27 <marga> vorlon_PDX: I was asking about _VE
17:30:28 <bdale> the hotel food in Argentina wasn't the best ever, the on-campus meals in HEL were, well ...
17:30:38 <HuntingBears_VE> ana, I'm sorry, we missed your mail :(
17:30:39 <vorlon_PDX> marga: oh, sorry, I thought you meant the Portland food carts :)
17:30:42 <vorlon_PDX> (which are a feature!)
17:30:56 <ana> bubulle: heh, I was quite OK with the argentian food but being able to talk with the waiters is a plus :)
17:30:59 <bdale> since the VE venue is in a town with some tourist attributes, I suspect a range of outside food
17:31:01 <moray> it seems like people slightly disagree based on their own food preferences?
17:31:10 <bubulle> yup
17:31:13 <moray> but it seems like either *should* have options somewhat nearby if in a city
17:31:18 <marga> I guess we can consider this a tie
17:31:32 <apostols_VE> With respect to food, in Venezuela, you can easily get any type of food (for vegetarians/vegans and non too). Just need to know what is the profile of people attending the event who have a particular way of eating
17:31:33 <gwolf> moray: but both offers are in large enough cities
17:31:34 <bdale> I see nothing particularly of concern on either side
17:31:35 <moray> maybe closer in portland, but taxis will be cheaper in venezuela I guess
17:31:36 <bubulle> yes, *i* would give VE a plus here but I'm not shocked by a tie
17:31:39 <ana> PDX is more cosmopolitan either in the university and outside, so I expect people happier there
17:31:53 <ana> wrt food :)
17:31:54 <e1th0r_VE> moray taxis are very cheapers in Venezuela
17:31:57 <HuntingBears_VE> food it's not hard-linked, we can do a poll :-)
17:31:58 <moray> so let's continue
17:32:03 <moray> 6. suitable accommodation in close proximity
17:32:09 <tiago> i cant think food will be a problem in a touristic city in .VE
17:32:14 <moray> again this is about sponsored accommodation and other options
17:32:27 <gwolf> I expect this to be a non-problem
17:32:32 <marga> Both seem ok.
17:32:33 <moray> (could mean only sponsored if that's good enough for everyone, but normally soe people want different levels)
17:32:34 <vorlon_PDX> I would be very surprised if anyone found it necessary to take a taxi for food in Portland
17:32:35 <gwolf> In Portland, there are many alternative lodging places
17:32:39 <marga> Plenty of hotels around both
17:32:42 <moray> yes
17:32:43 <ana> so, I'm in #debian-ve and e1th0r_VE has insulted me there
17:32:58 <gwolf> And in Venezuela, the hotel is quite pleasant even for people requiring higher standards
17:32:59 <ana> 19:32  <e1th0r_VE> esta cabeza de pipe de Ana lo que quiere s irse a Portland nojoda
17:33:02 <ana> 19:33  <HuntingBears_VE> -_-
17:33:03 <ana> so well...
17:33:06 <ana> 19:33  <ana> e1th0r_VE: bueno, tu problema es que estoy aqui
17:33:07 <moray> 7. presentation facilities
17:33:24 <gwolf> ana: I was about to send here a "please be less aggressive".
17:33:35 <ana> e1th0r_VE: I took the time of reading your bid weeks ago, I made sensible questions
17:33:39 <bubulle> I didn't confirm but 6 being a tie is OK for me too
17:33:44 <vorlon_PDX> for Portland, there are restaurants literally right below the residence hall; across the street; in a 1km walking radius; and public translation (including free public transportation on the street car, within a certain range) to other offerings
17:33:55 <ana> you could have convinced me of plenty of things, but you didn't answer. what do you expect?
17:34:40 <bdale> presentation facilities seem adequate in both bids
17:34:53 <XTaran> ana: That sounds insulting, too. So please...
17:35:04 <harmoney_PDX> PDX doesn't have tax.
17:35:06 <bubulle> +1, no real concern here, for me
17:35:09 <bdale> if we assume the usual video team behavior, the possible advantages of PDX are leveled
17:35:19 <ana> XTaran: uhm?
17:35:20 <harmoney_PDX> taxi - ignore me.
17:35:31 <tiago> not in current topic, but this disrespect against ana can't be neglected, too bad
17:35:34 <marga> bdale: leveled?
17:35:51 <ana> sorry, but were I was being disrespectful?
17:35:58 <bdale> if the video team brings their own gear, the fact that some PDX bid uni classrooms might have native streaming abilities doesn't matter
17:36:04 <tiago> ana, not you
17:36:09 <gwolf> tiago: yes, both.
17:36:14 <tiago> ana, against you
17:36:17 <moray> Bid teams: I realise that this stage is stressful, but please remember that everyone is just trying to find the best venue for DebConf.  It's not about who they like more or where they would prefer to travel themselves.
17:36:36 <bubulle> imho, we should move on with this disrespect|insult stuff.... We probably all made our mind anyway, pelase
17:36:37 <gwolf> ana: I was about to ask you some lines before you "denounced" him to tone down the aggression
17:36:39 <ana> I just felt my time wasted. Maybe I didn't used the best words here, sorry for that.
17:36:52 <gwolf> i.e. " I checked, I am not that convinced :)", "I asked some weeks ago, you could have answered there :)"
17:36:57 <marga> bdale: even though the video team usually brings a lot of stuff, a lot of other stuff is also rented or bought onsite
17:37:04 <vorlon_PDX> bdale: the presence of native streaming abilities in in our view mostly an advantage in that it lets us be more flexible about room scheduling, rather than having to worry about elaborate setup/teardown process for a room that's only used for plenaries
17:37:05 <gwolf> those are not irrelevant things, of course, but they have been already said.
17:37:10 <apostols_VE> We would have usual for conferences: an open space with seats, video projector, sound system with microphone, etc.
17:37:17 <bdale> vorlon_PDX: good point
17:37:34 <moray> ok
17:37:36 <moray> 8. travel logistics
17:37:37 <ana> gwolf: I didn't insult anyone gunnar on purpose
17:37:47 <gwolf> vorlon_PDX: nice point. Are those facilities compatible with our ways?
17:37:56 <bdale> PDX seems to win on travel logistics for all reasons other than concern over US visas
17:37:56 <HuntingBears_VE> Well, e1th0r_VE has apologized to ana, we are deeply sorry for this.
17:38:11 <bubulle> may I raise a point : we should leave VE team a bit more time to address concerns.... I feel like it's hard for them to answer quickly our numerous comments
17:38:13 <bdale> well connected airport, very good public transit from airport to venue
17:38:24 <moray> bubulle: I think all these things were already raised on the list
17:38:29 <vorlon_PDX> gwolf: I don't have enough information to say for sure; I'm confident we can work with the video team to determine this
17:38:29 <gwolf> bubulle: the issue is, we gave enough time, and they didn't reply to the lis
17:38:32 <gwolf> list
17:38:51 <bubulle> sure, yes, I understand....but still I think we're moving a bit too fast
17:39:06 <vorlon_PDX> bubulle: do you mean more time during the meeting?
17:39:09 <bdale> I don't, really, this is supposed to be a decision-making meeting, not a fact-finding meeting
17:39:10 <vorlon_PDX> or more time before making a decision?
17:39:17 <marga> I agree that travel logistics themselves are a clear win for portland, whereas visas are a big down :-/
17:39:39 <ana> the experience of the visas in nyc was quite positive
17:39:42 <bdale> marga: how big a down?  I honestly don't know since I live here.
17:39:51 <bdale> ana: that's what I recall, too
17:39:54 <HuntingBears_VE> buses will be placed on the arrival airports to transport people to Puerto La Cruz
17:39:55 <marga> ana: yes, but many people choose to not attend
17:40:15 <HuntingBears_VE> There is no problems with visas/entering to Venezuela
17:40:16 <moray> marga: that's probably true, but it still ended up one of the larger debconfs
17:40:17 <bdale> HuntingBears_VE: that sounds quite nice, but 6H on bus is >> 30 mins by tram
17:40:26 <gwolf> HuntingBears_VE: we have learnt to dislike the promises of hired buses for that
17:40:29 * bubulle also feels the same about travel (I should say "sadly" because the location for VE seems quite interesting.....but we already experienced the "many hours bus travel" debconf
17:40:34 <ana> marga: we don't have penta stats about people from previous years who didn't attend, but debconf10 was IIRC the second one with more attendees
17:40:41 <marga> bdale: US visas are expensive (USD 150, I think), with the a non-zero chance of not getting it and losing the money.
17:40:46 <gwolf> HuntingBears_VE: ...in several conferences we have had offers to have such "magic buses". It's better not to count on them at all.
17:40:46 <tiago> i can't see how DC in NYC was harder concerning visa than other some countries we had it
17:40:50 <bdale> bubulle: yeah, me too, I'd love to go to VE too
17:41:02 <HuntingBears_VE> gwolf, bdale theres also bus travelling from Barcelona airport, 30min from puerto la cruz
17:41:15 <e1th0r_VE> HuntingBears_VE, or less.
17:41:16 <tiago> gwolf,  we have learnt to dislike the promises in general :)
17:41:30 <bdale> HuntingBears_VE: right, I haven't researched flight options to the Barcelona airport, though
17:41:37 <gwolf> tiago: right. Getting a visa to countries such as Mexico or areas as Schengen-Europe is often as painful as to the US
17:41:48 <HuntingBears_VE> tiago, then don't trust bid pages :-)
17:41:50 <gwolf> tiago: *particularly* magic buses :)
17:42:06 <marga> anyway, we are going off track
17:42:07 <tiago> to not say about bosnian borders issues
17:42:10 <gwolf> right
17:42:11 <marga> do we have consensus here?
17:42:18 <bubulle> here I'm not giving my feelings : *I* liked the adventure smell we had in Banja Luka or Argentina with a many hours bus travel....but I'm not sure all debconfers did
17:42:21 <gwolf> yes, I think Portland has an advangage here
17:42:22 <vorlon_PDX> marga: I have proposed on the mailing list that visa application fees should be considered part of the sponsorable travel expenses; this should reduce the deterence factor at least for those we would like to sponsor
17:42:30 <bubulle> so, well Portland ahead for me here
17:42:36 <tiago> marga, i think so
17:42:47 <ana> for me too, I checked the trip options and even with direct bus was a pain
17:42:48 <moray> 9. accessibility
17:42:51 <gwolf> bubulle: if you want an adventure, travel to $bordering_ctry and go by bus from there ;-)
17:42:55 <HuntingBears_VE> Portland ahead in travel logistics?
17:43:02 <gwolf> yup
17:43:09 <ana> i think for accessibility both bids are fine
17:43:15 <tiago> mee too
17:43:16 <Tincho> I agree too on that, the travel options to barcelona didn't seem great
17:43:19 <gwolf> accessibility is a tie, /methinks
17:43:24 <bubulle> gwolf: or spend two weeks in the country afterwards, agreed..:-)
17:43:25 <bdale> both seem fine
17:43:34 <tiago> so move on
17:43:39 <bubulle> +1
17:43:48 <HuntingBears_VE> how is travel length an issue, and visas are not?
17:44:13 <bdale> both are issues
17:44:15 <moray> #topic Chaired discussion#topic Chaired discussion
17:44:16 <moray> From the bid process: "There is a period of chaired discussion of the competing bids' merits, with opportunity for anyone present to speak, during which the meeting chairs seek consensus on a decision. The DebConf Committee members should participate in this discussion."  I suggest we pause after maximum 15 minutes, we can have more discussion after that if needed.
17:44:16 <gwolf> HuntingBears_VE: because of the project's distribution and our past experiences
17:44:21 <moray> Bid teams please limit yourself to maximum two people who will speak for you (preferably one), but the discussion is open to everyone who is not associated with a bid, not only the DebConf Committee -- please *do* express your preferences now rather than being neutral.
17:44:21 <bdale> travel length affects everyone, visas only a few
17:44:24 <moray> From the bid process: "There is a period of chaired discussion of the competing bids' merits, with opportunity for anyone present to speak, during which the meeting chairs seek consensus on a decision. The DebConf Committee members should participate in this discussion."  I suggest we pause after maximum 15 minutes, we can have more discussion after that if needed.
17:44:29 <moray> Bid teams please limit yourself to maximum two people who will speak for you (preferably one), but the discussion is open to everyone who is not associated with a bid, not only the DebConf Committee -- please *do* express your preferences now rather than being neutral.
17:44:36 <Tincho> HuntingBears_VE: many people find 4-6h on a bus something really bothersome. the visa is something you do in advance
17:44:37 <gwolf> visas are important, but most people that get to a DebConf will not have (too much of) a problem getting them
17:45:07 <gwolf> and we can focus our efforts on helping those who need the visas
17:45:08 <apostols_VE> The selected hotels have accessibility system (but do not get the 4 or 5 star). At the airport also has the accessibility system. Depending on the number of people who want it, you can schedule a personalized tour.
17:45:35 <marga> Right, for NYC, there was a special team dedicated to visas and I think that was a big point in not having many problems.
17:46:06 <marga> We can put together a team for visas for Portland, but no team can fix the bus ride.
17:46:29 <moray> OK -- please give opinions wider than the buses now :)
17:46:34 <marga> There was no point where VE was clearly ahead.
17:46:44 <moray> this is not "voting" yet, but we may not need a formal vote depending on people's views
17:46:55 <moray> ideally we aim for consenssus
17:46:58 * bubulle thinks we anyway have two very good bids, here
17:47:02 <moray> People should take into account all the points from the checklist, and whatever else is important to them.  e.g. It's correct to take into account questions that you feel have not been adequately answered on the list, or to take into account the behaviour of team members.
17:47:13 <marga> And the lack of respect towards Ana sets a really bad precedent and -for me- deducts a lot of points from "local team".
17:47:16 <ultrt> preference: I would just love to go to venezuela. that said the portland bid is so strong and "simple" that is feels bad to pass on it just for the niceness of being some place more interesting (sorry, portland) ;)
17:47:30 <bubulle> and I already know I will be sad for one of both teams
17:47:39 <bdale> both bids seem "acceptable" to me, I see no big deal killer items in either one.  I would love to visit VE and have been to PDX too many times to think it's "special" for me to go there.  But I see the PDX bid as having several advantages that in total make me lean that way.
17:47:43 * XTaran agrees with ultrt.
17:48:04 <moray> ultrt: Sure, for personal travel I would far rather go to Venezuela than another bit of the US :)
17:48:13 <moray> but that's not really a criterion here
17:48:20 <gwolf> Yes... I'm also leaning towards Portland. Sadly, the lack of communication from the Venezuelan team so far really (and our past experiences with the NEED for communication) weighed towards it.
17:48:24 <vorlon_PDX> ultrt: have you ever been to Portland?  If we promise to get you a tattoo and a piercing while you're here, would that make it more interesting? ;)
17:48:27 * Tincho is worried about alcohol in PDX
17:48:38 <gwolf> I'd really love to go to Venezuela, and I have to get an excuse to be invited to visit ;-)
17:48:41 <marga> I guess most non USias would rather not have another US DebConf, but as has been said, that's not how we choose
17:48:54 <vorlon_PDX> Tincho: fwiw, alcohol is /plentiful/ in Portland, there are just specific laws regarding /public/ consumption
17:48:55 <bdale> Tincho: there's lots of alcohol in PDX, there are just some boundary rules about public consumption
17:48:56 <harmoney_PDX> Tincho: Worrying about alochol in PDX is silly. You should really research PDX a little better. :)
17:49:04 <XTaran> Tincho: Too much or not enough alcohol?
17:49:07 <gwolf> marga: I think to the contrary. Many USians do not travel outside the US (as the NYC DebConf showed).
17:49:12 <Tincho> hey hey, don't kill me
17:49:16 <ultrt> moray: well, general location "attractiveness" is: I was super-excited about nicaragua. And I'm so happy to have made it there.
17:49:19 <Tincho> that's what you guys said in the checklist
17:49:20 * bubulle is very balanced....a *lot*
17:49:24 <vorlon_PDX> harmoney_PDX: I think that was a direct response to what I wrote on https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf14/Portland/Checklist
17:49:32 <ultrt> that said I acknowledge it can't be the "most important" criterion, definitely
17:49:46 <gwolf> And yes, both bids sound really capable of holding a great DebConf
17:49:54 <bdale> marga: you make a good point for the US folks on the ctte here, but as for the general DD population, it's much easier for many US people to travel in the US than internationally
17:49:57 <ultrt> vorlon_PDX: no, actually that'd scare me a bit more :p
17:50:03 <bdale> same as any country in that respect, I guess
17:50:16 <HuntingBears_VE> I think DebConf and Debian has a very good opportunity to strengthen bonds with particular projects in the country.
17:50:17 <ana> US people also tend to have less holidays, so it's probably harder for them to attend debconf
17:50:17 <apostols_VE> gwolf: Anytime, you're welcome :)
17:50:24 <ultrt> vorlon_PDX: never been, and actually would be happy to visit. I just feel there are a lot more chances :)
17:50:27 <vorlon_PDX> ultrt: but it would make it "interesting"! :-)
17:50:33 <vorlon_PDX> right
17:50:46 <gwolf> (oh, and FWIW, back to the "connectivity/travel logistics" criterion...Getting from mostly everywhere that I checked is much cheaper to Portland)
17:50:47 <gregoa> my summary, ignoring the points where both bids are fine: portland is cheaper, probably has a more debian experienced team and is easier to reach. puerto la cruz has less visa issues. my conclusion is that the portland bid seems more suited
17:50:48 <karora> I am very impressed with the comprehensive planning in the PDX bid.
17:50:49 <ultrt> vorlon_PDX: sorry, I prefer to swim in volcano craters ;)
17:51:00 <moray> ana: well, it's harder for them to find time to attend an international one
17:51:35 <ana> moray: yes, exactly, international conference involves more travel time and most of us go to debconf in our free time
17:51:46 <bubulle> ultrt: there is a "nice" volcano crater close to PDX
17:51:49 <vorlon_PDX> ultrt: ah sorry, our volcano crater is too cold to swim in
17:51:54 <ultrt> marga: well, personally I don't care *that* much, once they got my fingerprints once they have them forever ;)
17:52:20 <gwolf> vorlon_PDX: how far away is the Yellowstone megavolcano? :)
17:52:36 <bdale> gwolf: it's in the same country.  ;-)\
17:52:37 <vorlon_PDX> gwolf: around a day's travel by car/bus, I think
17:52:38 <moray> can we guarantee that you can run up the Portland volcano?
17:52:40 <marga> So, since we are going off-topic... vorlon_PDX / harmoney_PDX: can you explain a bit more about the public alcohol consumption?
17:52:47 <bubulle> my feelings tend to lean me towards VE.....and my reason makes me lean towards PDX (took me time to write this trying to be sure to not hurt any feeling)
17:52:47 <vorlon_PDX> moray: there's... a lot of snow
17:53:09 <harmoney_PDX> moray: No. A trip to St Helens requires planning and coordination and getting a hiking pass.
17:53:28 <moray> So, is there consensus yet?
17:53:29 <harmoney_PDX> We can bus up there, but hiking is, ah, not spontaneous for St Helens. :)
17:53:31 <XTaran> .oO( hiking visas? )
17:53:46 <tiago> IMO VE has a lovely and acceptable bid, but portland would have my vote.
17:53:48 * gwolf points at moray's quesiton
17:53:51 <harmoney_PDX> You can hike Hood if you want spontaneous.
17:53:52 <Tincho> now that marga brought back the topic. We have had before informal evening meetings where ethanol was consumed in non-licensed premises, most notable the C&W; what you guys mention in the checklist weak points makes me afraid of having problems because people *will* be consuming alcohol around the sleeping quarters and more
17:53:53 <vorlon_PDX> marga: you can't drink alcohol on the streets, and any alcohol served on the university campus that's *not* in an individual's dorm room has to be served by a licensed bartender
17:54:12 <bdale> moray: it seems to me that the consensus is in favor of PDX
17:54:15 <gwolf> Venezuelans: Would you be inclined to organize a regional minidebconf, as the one that was held in Panamá some years ago?
17:54:26 <vorlon_PDX> marga: this makes it impractical to have the wine and cheese party on the university campus, but we will explore other options
17:54:29 <e1th0r_VE> gwolf, sure, its not problem
17:54:42 <gwolf> of course the setting could be quite different
17:54:51 <gwolf> but that can be a way to better get the team involved/incultured
17:54:55 <moray> does anyone (who is not from a bid team) want to object to bdale's conclusion that the consensus is for Portland?
17:55:00 <vorlon_PDX> people can certainly drink in their own rooms with smaller groups of friends, or they can drink in the pubs
17:55:03 * bubulle makes the official promise to attend a regional debconf in VE if PDX is chosen
17:55:06 <gwolf> and to present again, being more integrated in the project
17:55:21 <bdale> as I say, I would love to visit VE and an invitation to participate in an event there would be looked upon very favorably
17:55:21 <XTaran> vorlon_PDX: Why would the C&W party considered public?
17:55:35 <gwolf> I am *sure* we can have a great DebConf in Venezuela, but I think it will have to wait... for another year at least
17:55:57 <moray> #action Venezuelans to organise a local event so we all have an excuse to visit
17:56:04 <marga> :)
17:56:17 <vorlon_PDX> XTaran: because it's in a public space (the university)
17:56:22 <bubulle> XTaran: I vote for C&W concerns to be in the priority list next time
17:56:24 <Tincho> personally, I am inclined towards PDX. Although I would really like a DC in .ve, the place looks great, it is a moment in which I would like to strengthen freesoftware support in .ve, etc.
17:56:29 <moray> #info < bdale> moray: it seems to me that the consensus is in favor of PDX
17:56:30 <XTaran> I see
17:56:31 <XTaran> bubulle: Full ack!
17:56:47 <vorlon_PDX> XTaran: regardless, I think we can solve this but I don't want anyone to be caught unawares
17:57:00 <marga> moray: I think the consensus among us has been reached.  I'd like to hear from .ve
17:57:00 <gwolf> Venezuelans: And, of course, the timing and current situation and (perceived?) uncertainty in the country do not help. But we _want_ to go there :)
17:57:01 <ultrt> vorlon_PDX: the university is not private? ah, these socialist americans... :p
17:57:02 <moray> so can we pause general chat and give a moment for anyone (not from a bid team) to object to the implied decision?
17:57:03 <bubulle> no obkection from my side on the consensus and I *knew* I would be sad
17:57:06 <XTaran> vorlon_PDX: I believe that.
17:57:13 <ultrt> bubulle: +1
17:59:10 <moray> #action DebConf team to organise DebConf14 in Portland, USA including help from Portland bid team
17:59:15 <moray> #topic Open discussion
17:59:27 <marga> I insist that I'd like to hear something from .ve, but well...
17:59:42 <gwolf> marga: completely right... Venezuelans... ..?
17:59:51 <HuntingBears_VE> alright :-D
18:00:10 <e1th0r_VE> well, its ok, but...
18:00:17 <e1th0r_VE> its not easy for venezuelan people get visas :-D
18:00:19 <e1th0r_VE> so..
18:00:38 <vorlon_PDX> HuntingBears_VE: thanks very much for offering to host DebConf - even if you weren't chosen, it makes for a healthier conference when we have options
18:00:38 <e1th0r_VE> but I'm happu for the consensous
18:00:39 <ultrt> HuntingBears_VE, e1th0r_VE, how about another bid? we'd love to hear back from you!
18:00:50 <e1th0r_VE> ultrt, sure!!!!
18:01:11 <n0rman> e1th0r_VE: not only for venezueleans :) it's not easy for almost all countries in LatinAmerica
18:01:11 <gwolf> e1th0r_VE: But we are committed to getting help to people needing them :-} (and yes, it helped in DC10, which was QUITE a difficult thing to convince us of)
18:01:32 <gwolf> e1th0r_VE: We had greater problems AFAIK getting visas for countries that should be easier
18:01:33 <vorlon_PDX> e1th0r_VE: we will definitely make sure there is something in place to help with the visa process; if anyone from the Venezuela bid team is wanting to attend DC14 and concerned about visa, please have them contact me directly
18:01:40 <e1th0r_VE> n0rman, gwolf yes, but If you're a political activist its not easy
18:02:04 <gwolf> e1th0r_VE: it's easier if you have an invitation from a well-known group - such as this one
18:02:08 <HuntingBears_VE> well, this outcome makes us sad, but we will continue to giving back what Debian has given to FOSS movement in the world. Thanks to Debian, many projects a possible in our country.
18:02:18 <HuntingBears_VE> so you will hear back from us
18:02:21 <HuntingBears_VE> :-)
18:02:22 <ultrt> actually, please, .ve people, try to attend and be there and known. then it'd be easier for dc14+1 or +2
18:02:34 <vorlon_PDX> HuntingBears_VE: I hope you will all be there in Portland next year :)
18:02:36 <tiago> VE people, please get involved in next DCs organization if you want to re-bid
18:02:43 <bureado> I will most likely attend Portland
18:02:46 <gwolf> HuntingBears_VE: And *please* try to get us to organize a regional conf
18:02:46 <ultrt> (considering that +1 probably has to be on this side of the pond, right?)
18:02:51 <n0rman> HuntingBears_VE: great! :) you can try for DC16, maybe? :)
18:03:04 <n0rman> mini-debconf Venezuela 2013? :)
18:03:05 <bdale> HuntingBears_VE: thank you very much for your work on all this
18:03:05 <HuntingBears_VE> vorlon_PDX, i don't think so, is such a PITA to get a visa :-D
18:03:09 <gwolf> HuntingBears_VE: I'm sure the 2010 minidebconf at Panama was quite important for DC12@nicaragua (n0rman, agree? :) )
18:03:10 <vorlon_PDX> man
18:03:11 <bureado> And I will be happy to help anyone from the .ve team that wants to come to Portland
18:03:12 <vorlon_PDX> again with the visas
18:03:15 <XTaran> n0rman: DC15 would do, too.
18:03:24 <vorlon_PDX> HuntingBears_VE: even if DebConf paid for your visa?
18:03:27 <n0rman> gwolf: fully aggree :)
18:03:30 <gwolf> (as there is one big Central American community...)
18:03:31 <vorlon_PDX> (which I believe they should do)
18:03:36 <XTaran> n0rman: IIRC north and south america are considered different continents
18:03:37 <gwolf> n0rman: dc15
18:03:41 <gwolf> enough wait :)
18:03:55 <HuntingBears_VE> vorlon_PDX, you don't know the stories on the US embassy, man :-/
18:04:02 <bdale> I would welcome another bid from VE in *any* future year
18:04:22 <vorlon_PDX> XTaran: different continents> that depends on what language you speak
18:04:25 <HuntingBears_VE> vorlon_PDX, but we are glad to help, in anything possible
18:04:40 <bdale> HuntingBears_VE: I, for one, hope that all of that improves over time, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see
18:04:41 <n0rman> I agree with HuntingBears_VE, but you(we?) can try to get that visa :) to attend DC14
18:05:02 * ultrt opts for dinner
18:05:20 * bdale notes it's time for lunch
18:05:22 <vorlon_PDX> did anyone from .ve attend DC10 in NY?
18:05:31 * vorlon_PDX thinks about breakfast
18:05:46 <ultrt> ah, these debian people, always doing food
18:05:55 <e1th0r_VE> vorlon_PDX, only 2- or 3 peoples
18:06:00 * XTaran already had a sandwich for dinner
18:06:09 <vorlon_PDX> e1th0r_VE: and did they have a hard time with the embassy?
18:06:14 <jmaslibre> gwolf: and I got my key signed in minidebconf Panamá, that helped me a lot :).
18:06:41 <moray> #topic End of meeting
18:06:43 <n0rman> vorlon: visa things always depends in the person, and as they said, ifyou are a politic activist is harder to get a visa
18:06:50 <moray> Congratulations to the Portland bid!
18:06:51 <XTaran> moray: Just wanted to ask for that. :)
18:06:53 <e1th0r_VE> n0rman, I know :-D
18:07:07 <moray> And thank you very much to the Venezuelan bid, I hope you give us all an excuse to visit there soon!
18:07:10 <n0rman> harder == almost impossible
18:07:25 <apostols_VE> Thanks your for all DD!
18:07:27 <gwolf> jmaslibre: and I got frustrated at not being able to be at Panamá :-(
18:07:40 <n0rman> e1th0r_VE: miniDebConf Venezuela 2013 :)
18:07:51 <e1th0r_VE> n0rman, hmmm.... sound great
18:07:52 <apostols_VE> :)
18:08:13 <e1th0r_VE> n0rman, moray bdale gwolf bubulle minidebconf Venezuela 2013?
18:08:18 <ultrt> ok... good night for now! talk soon, and thanks a lot everybody!!
18:08:21 <gwolf> e1th0r_VE: count on me.
18:08:28 <moray> 2014 might give others more time to arrange travel, but perhapsyes
18:08:37 <ultrt> e1th0r_VE: me too, if possible! (but it's hard for me to do mini debconfs)
18:08:48 <ultrt> see you soon!
18:08:48 <e1th0r_VE> ultrt, ok..
18:08:57 <e1th0r_VE> ultrt, sure,
18:08:59 <n0rman> e1th0r_VE: i'm in :)
18:09:04 * karora goes back to bed... :-)
18:09:05 <gwolf> Thanks to you all, to both bids and to all committee members, for tuning in
18:09:08 <gwolf> for doing all that work
18:09:18 <gwolf> and for all the work they are now expected to make ;-)
18:09:21 <rafw> thanks all, bye.
18:09:25 <moray> and to non-committee people who helped assess the bids :)
18:09:54 <moray> #endmeeting