19:01:16 <marga> #startmeeting
19:01:16 <MeetBot> Meeting started Fri Feb 13 19:01:16 2015 UTC.  The chair is marga. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01:16 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:01:26 <RichiH_ctte> .
19:01:33 <marga> #chairs moray marga
19:01:48 <marga> #chair moray
19:01:48 <MeetBot> Current chairs: marga moray
19:01:56 <marga> https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Meetings#DC16_decision_meeting_agenda
19:02:13 <marga> That's the agenda that we intend to use
19:02:58 <pollo_mtl> cyphermox_mtl and I will be speakers for Montréal, as last time
19:03:06 <marga> We will go through the different points in the priority checklist and each of the member of the committee shall voice their opinion.
19:03:13 <marga> pollo_mtl, cyphermox_mtl said lavamind_mtl and you.
19:03:30 <marga> Everyon that is around, please say hello, so that you know you are there.
19:03:36 <pollo_mtl> marga: oh, damn, sorry, it's true
19:03:37 <jeansch_mtl> hello !
19:03:37 <Tincho> o/
19:03:43 <gwolf> miau
19:03:43 <n0rman_> hola!
19:03:46 <rmayorga> hola
19:03:47 <h01ger> hola
19:03:47 <marga> #topic Introductions
19:03:51 <lavamind_mtl> salut
19:03:54 <marga> (sorry about that)
19:04:01 <vorlon> hi
19:04:04 <indiebio_cpt> hi
19:04:05 <superfly_cpt> hi!
19:04:08 <marga> Any offtopic discussion should be done in #debconf-discuss
19:04:10 <ultrt> I'm here! :)
19:04:14 <hug> hi
19:04:24 <maxy> hi
19:04:29 <highvoltage_cpt> o/
19:04:40 <tumbleweed_cpt> hi
19:04:42 <RichiH_ctte> .
19:04:49 <marga> I will only set the channel to moderated if it's needed.
19:05:08 <ginggs_cpt> howzit!
19:05:52 <marga> So, the bids have sent their updates.  Unfortunately they were a bit last minute, so hard for us to analyze.
19:06:30 <moray> marga: Setting moderated now may be useful to prevent mistakes when people turn up half-way through.
19:06:31 <marga> I'll give 4 minutes (i.e. until :10) to write here any important updates that you want the committee members to take into account.
19:06:54 <marga> After that, we start going through the priority list
19:07:21 <marga> (please reload the page if you already loaded it, as it includes a bunch of useful comments)
19:07:58 * h01ger wouldnt mind a summary here
19:08:00 <tumbleweed_cpt> reminder of link: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Cape_Town/Status#Since_the_first_meeting [which hasn't changed since I posted it to the list]
19:08:32 <tumbleweed_cpt> oh, I forgot to mention in the status update, that child care has been confirmed, at UCT
19:09:03 <pollo_mtl> out status update is here: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Montreal/Status
19:09:14 <pollo_mtl> the only things that are to add is that we got clearer dates
19:09:40 <pollo_mtl> we were recommended June 19-30 or July 18-26
19:09:43 <hug> pollo_mtl: do you have a link to your updated venue/security and food prices you mentioned in the update?
19:09:48 <h01ger> pollo_mtl: as in more restricted dates? or how are they clearer?
19:10:01 <marga> I don't think dates are relevant for this meeting
19:10:06 <h01ger> s/restricted/specific/
19:10:19 <marga> So, please let's not discuss that now.
19:10:20 <h01ger> marga: if they are unchangable, i think they are
19:10:21 <pollo_mtl> security - https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Montreal/Venues/McGill#How_much_does_it_cost_to_rent_these_facilities.3F
19:10:34 <cyphermox_mtl> they are not unchangeable
19:10:37 <cyphermox_mtl> recommended times from our accomodation, this is the time where they are the least busy
19:10:42 <cyphermox_mtl> that's all
19:10:52 <h01ger> marga: we had this debconf13 where place and time could not be changed and the local team argued we should have known as it was clear in the meeting...
19:10:53 <marga> h01ger, nope. We've always gone with whatever was available. Not relevant, please let's not discuss that.
19:11:07 <marga> #topic Priority list
19:11:09 <n0rman_> pollo_mtl: sorry, how much is 22750CAD$ en USD? EUR?
19:11:31 <RichiH_ctte> 16012.19 Euro
19:11:39 <RichiH_ctte> 18238.52 US Dollar
19:11:46 <marga> Alright, let's start going throu the priority list now.
19:11:47 <pollo_mtl> n0rman_: yeah, but as said previously, it can chnage quite a bit
19:12:00 <marga> #topic  affordable for both sponsors and attendees [including venue and travel costs]
19:12:01 <tassia> hi!
19:12:08 <tassia> I'm here too
19:12:11 <pollo_mtl> hug: food - https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Montreal/Venues/McGill#How_much_are_the_meals_per_person_per_day.3F
19:12:28 <marga> pollo_mtl, ok, thanks.  Please let us move on now.
19:12:48 <hug> pollo_mtl: thx
19:12:59 <marga> So, this is for committee members to evaluate
19:13:16 <marga> Please go ahead and express a succint opinion on this point.
19:13:23 <moray> This is about total costs -- venue plus food plus accommodation plus travel etc.
19:13:28 <hug> pollo_mtl: so the venue price is unchanged, correct?
19:13:39 <Tincho> has anybody made a quick budget with the current prices?
19:13:56 <pollo_mtl> hug: it changed a bit, but not much. Mainly because we decided to rent more rooms
19:14:08 <gwolf> IMO we will see great variation here... One bid is much cheaper to *be at*, while much more expensive to get to, and the other one almost opposite :(
19:14:12 <marga> Tincho, not as far as I know.
19:14:13 <tumbleweed_cpt> Tincho: http://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/debconf-data/bid-capetown.git/tree/venue_info/debconf16_cost_comparison.ods
19:14:14 <hug> roughly 50k CAD for venue/security, I'd say
19:14:15 <moray> Tincho: To me it seems like the sum cost for sponsors plus attendees will be lower for MTL because of half the people getting cheaper travel.
19:14:18 <RichiH_ctte> venue + food cost of mtl are 17.800 EUR more expensive than .za, i am still looking for sleeping cost
19:14:36 <moray> Tincho: I don't think that the variations in venue costs between the two bids are big compared to the difference I see in travel costs.
19:14:48 <marga> My opinion: although flights to CPT are more expensive for people from North America, they are the same for people from the rest of the world. Everything else is cheaper in CPT.
19:14:59 * h01ger thinks we shouldnt weight unsponsored travel costs - those are not conference costs after all
19:15:06 <h01ger> should weight less
19:15:15 <rmayorga> even if we are just a few of us, but travalling from latin america is very expensive as well
19:15:36 <marga> h01ger, they are not conference costs, but they affect who gets there.
19:15:37 <gwolf> h01ger: Right, although it will impact people willing to travel (even paying themselves)
19:15:42 <Tincho> moray: ok, good to know. I thought the venue costs were much higher
19:15:45 <RichiH_ctte> (assuming 300 people in the above)
19:15:46 <gwolf> h01ger: I expect it would be a smaller conf in ZA
19:15:54 <vorlon> marga: yes I agree
19:16:01 <tumbleweed_cpt> gwolf: yes, that's likely
19:16:15 <vorlon> h01ger: to the extent that it impacts turnout, unsponsored travel costs matter
19:16:18 <h01ger> gwolf: i agree. same as in .ni...
19:16:30 <Tincho> gwolf: yeah, but that is not a positive aspect :)
19:16:33 <gwolf> same as in all of Latin American confs so far
19:16:46 <tassia> if that is the point, we should always stick with europe / US
19:16:47 <marga> h01ger, from what I looked at, flight prices for Europe are less expensive for CPT than for .ni
19:17:04 <marga> My point of view is that there's a slight advantage to CPT in this case
19:17:07 <tassia> going away from the center will always be expensive
19:17:25 <moray> tassia: we can decide whatever we want, but we shouldn't just *ignore* the travel costs
19:17:28 <RichiH_ctte> average accomodation price in mtl is 2 eur per person and night higher so assuming 300 people, the total difference is 18500 eur for venue, food, accom with 300 people
19:17:40 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: that spreadsheet is way too complex to read now :)
19:17:47 * h01ger agrees with marga
19:17:53 <rmayorga> indeed, having the venue for free and the cheap price for food is at advantage
19:18:06 <gwolf> rmayorga: surely.
19:18:23 <tassia> moray, I acknoledge it, I just think that venue + food costs could balance
19:18:25 <hug> well, cost-wise CPT is on the cheaper side IMO. food 8EUR vs 20CAD, venue free vs 50k CAD, accomodation probably about the same..
19:18:28 <marga> Tnx. Can the rest please try to state weather they see a slight/medium/large advantage for one of the teams, or a tie?
19:18:29 <RichiH_ctte> that being said, travel will be more expensive and i also expect a slightly smaller DC in .za than in .ca
19:18:36 <n0rman_> rmayorga: also accomodation looks cheaper than MTL
19:18:40 <marga> We don't want to discuss every penny
19:18:41 <moray> marga: is there a useful reason to come up with a simple "ahead" for one, versus separating these two questions?
19:18:53 <RichiH_ctte> n0rman_: on average: €2 cheaper
19:18:58 <moray> marga: e.g. "CPT ahead on venue costs, MTL on costs to attendees"
19:18:59 <ultrt> I agree on slight + for cpt
19:19:12 <moray> marga: e.g. "CPT ahead on venue costs, MTL on costs to attendees/travel sponsorship"
19:19:15 * RichiH_ctte also sees a slight advantage for cpt
19:19:16 <marga> moray, well, it's been historically one point :).
19:19:32 <tassia> \me sees a tie
19:19:45 <moray> marga: well, the alternative is that I go on arguing that you are wrong to ignore the large extra travel costs :)
19:19:48 <RichiH_ctte> do we note this down now or go through it later?
19:19:51 <gwolf> I feel it to be slightly advantageous to CPT, iff European travel costs are similar to both destinations
19:19:56 * h01ger thinks its a medium advantage as money is a huge burdon
19:19:58 <hug> IMO 50k CAD is a lot, we never had such an expensive venue
19:20:11 <hug> I hope it would be cheaper after some negotiations
19:20:12 <vorlon> gwolf: except 2016 is meant to be an "Americas" year
19:20:31 <gwolf> vorlon: Not a strict rule FWIW
19:20:36 <gwolf> vorlon: we have always said so
19:20:44 <marga> Alright, let's just split it as I think there's basically a consensus of the split: strong advantage for CPT regarding venue+accom, medium advantage for MTL regarding travel?
19:20:45 <gwolf> vorlon: In any case, it would be an "out of Europe" year :)
19:20:50 <h01ger> vorlon: i think the scheme is switching continents, not america nor europe every two years
19:21:10 <RichiH_ctte> marga: if we split up the two points, i can agree to your call for consensus
19:21:11 <n0rman_> hug: 50k CAD for venue? I'm seeing 27572 CAD$ for venue, am I seeing in the wrong place?
19:21:12 <marga> The scheme is not written in stone and it's really not now the moment to discuss it.
19:21:17 <hug> n0rman_: security
19:21:25 <RichiH_ctte> n0rman_: i just realized that hug inclded security
19:21:28 <RichiH_ctte> which we must
19:21:34 <marga> Can we try to agree on this point and move on to the next?
19:21:36 <moray> marga: the travel point is "strong" to me, it's a big cost to have so few people in cheap reach of the venue
19:21:41 <vorlon> gwolf: whether or not it's a rule, the travel costs from the Americas weight more for me than travel costs from Europe
19:21:48 <moray> but yes, I think we should agree we agree on the status, if not exact words
19:21:49 <gwolf> ...And how many flight tickets would 50K buy us? That's IIRC more than our usual travel budget
19:22:03 <n0rman_> hug: RichiH_ctte right  so es 27572 + 22750? that's really expensive......
19:22:04 <gwolf> vorlon: OK, fair point. Also to me personally.
19:22:09 <tumbleweed_cpt> gwolf: ~50 from europe
19:22:12 * Tincho just checking flights from dublin on this july and the difference is 900 vs 1800 USD
19:22:21 <moray> gwolf: normally we have a significant number of people who can get cheap fligths
19:22:22 <h01ger> marga: i think you should summarize some state of how we see this and move to the next, yes
19:22:23 <gwolf> vorlon: and we have quite a big mass of developers in North America.
19:22:26 <moray> gwolf: we wouldn't really in this case
19:22:34 <h01ger> the discussion is getting meta..
19:22:37 <rmayorga> Tincho: can you tell us which one was 900?
19:22:45 <Tincho> rmayorga: MTL
19:22:50 <marga> #agreed advantage to CPT regarding venue+accom, advantage to MTL regarding travel
19:22:56 <Tincho> there are cheaper flights to CPT, but they take 24 hours
19:23:00 <hug> marga: please also note the 50k CAD venue costs, which is about half-1/3 of our typicial budget
19:23:01 <gwolf> Tincho: if that's the case, then there's *not* a price parity between both
19:23:03 <tassia> marga, did we agree?
19:23:04 <gwolf> marga: thx
19:23:09 <marga> Sorry, that was wrong
19:23:12 <marga> #topic  strong, mature, experienced local team
19:23:37 <marga> So, I think both bids are weak here
19:23:38 <hug> IMO both teams are strong and experienced.
19:23:43 <gwolf> tassia: not necessarily an agreement, but we were starting to re-state each their own points
19:23:45 <moray> hug: Really?  Out of *locals*?
19:23:58 <marga> They are both very unexperienced
19:24:03 <h01ger> marga: use "rough agreement" instead of "we agree" ;-)
19:24:04 <tassia> gwolf, marga , ok, I hadn't see the split
19:24:06 <RichiH_ctte> i think cpt has the stronger team, but mtl has the stronger _local_ team
19:24:07 <marga> (regarding DebCOnf)
19:24:31 <tumbleweed_cpt> what makes for strong here? having run a debconf in the past?
19:24:34 <gwolf> I feel this point advantageous towards CPT.
19:24:35 <lavamind_mtl> just to be clear, we had no outside (out of Mtl) help in building this bid
19:24:54 <moray> gwolf: Because of the outside mentors, or something else?
19:24:57 * h01ger thinks physical location of the whole team is a red herring
19:24:58 <hug> well they both have some experience and have some previous debconf team members. which IMO is enough
19:25:11 <tassia> h01ger, red herring?
19:25:16 <rmayorga> I think on mtl, it will depend on how many lpeople from local team will decide to work on it, probabaly this will change if they get the venue or not
19:25:22 <h01ger> tassia: hint in the wrong direction
19:25:25 <gwolf> moray: because of more people involved in the bid that have had experience in DebConf, both as attendees and as organizers (i.e. wendar)
19:25:42 <gwolf> tassia: I guess I should not be counting you+tiago as local team, right?
19:25:44 <hug> we won't end up with a one-man-show in either bid
19:25:53 <moray> gwolf: ok -- I think madduck/wendar were calling themselves mentors recently
19:25:54 <Tincho> h01ger: for me is a very difficult thing, because we always had remote people helping in various degrees, and you know that better than anybody :)
19:26:13 <vorlon> I think "experienced" here has always meant whether the team has experience within DebConf organization itself, and all its idiosyncracies
19:26:25 <marga> wendar and tumbleweed_cpt have both said that they would be there in advance.
19:26:41 <Tincho> yes, I don't think experience in other kinds of events is so useful for debconf
19:26:48 <gwolf> moray: IIRC wendar had stated she'd go "station" at CPT for a couple of months before the conference... I'm counting her as part of the team, not as mentor. But I might be mistaken
19:26:48 <tassia> if MTL wins, you can count me as a mentor, but I can't commit to orga team
19:26:53 <marga> There's a bunch of experienced people in Montreal, but only Tiago was involved in the bid, and as a mentor.
19:26:55 <tassia> gwolf, ^
19:27:18 <vorlon> mentors help in the case that the bid team doesn't have this experience; there's still the question of whether the people making the decisions on the ground for the local team understand DebConf
19:27:37 <RichiH_ctte> vorlon: that also depends on how involved "mentors" are
19:27:38 <marga> Please let's not discuss each point to death
19:27:39 <vorlon> i.e., if we're reliant on mentors, there needs to be a good relationship with those mentors
19:27:41 <tassia> I think wendar and tumbleweed_cpt are more involved then just mentors
19:27:47 <RichiH_ctte> marga++
19:27:54 <marga> My opinion is that there's a slight advantage for CPT here.
19:27:56 <gwolf> FWIW both tiago` and wendar count themselves as localteam for both bids
19:28:01 <RichiH_ctte> can we all give a short indication of what we think?
19:28:03 <gwolf> anybody else upping the ante? :)
19:28:12 <hug> marga: agreed
19:28:18 <tumbleweed_cpt> I also want indiebio_cpt to get to DC15, to get more experience with DebConf
19:28:21 * RichiH_ctte sees a slight advantage for cpt
19:28:26 <h01ger> me thinks the topic is misleading. the local team also needs to be global, as in work inside the debconf team...
19:28:37 <h01ger> (what i said on #-discuss basically)
19:28:44 <vorlon> I see an advantage to cpt here
19:28:51 * Tincho is expecting the local team to become global tomorrow
19:28:54 <rmayorga> tumbleweed_cpt: that is the way to go, normally people from DebConf+1 should attend to DC and get involved
19:29:18 * h01ger cheers tiago` and wendar being part of both bids localteams - actually i would like to hear their recommendations ;-)
19:29:23 <vorlon> but maybe this is a misperception because the mentoring on mtl has been behind the scenes?
19:29:28 <marga> Does anyone disagree with (slight) advantage to CPT?
19:29:41 <moray> marga: For me I think either can work; the non-localness of key people in CPT worries me a bit
19:29:55 <tassia> I see advantage to cpt
19:30:02 <moray> But with continued enthusiasm it shouldn't be a problem
19:30:31 <h01ger> next 'opic then?
19:30:38 <tassia> the amount of work that they've done to the bid preparation show that they can get things done
19:30:41 <marga> #agreed slight advantage to CPT
19:30:45 <Tincho> I see CPT being better organised, but I am not sure how to evaluate because of the non-localness
19:30:52 <marga> #topic  good working spaces [hacklabs, discussion rooms etc.]
19:31:12 <rmayorga> for me there is tie here, both venues looks very good
19:31:18 <gwolf> I'd set a tie on this, having seen only few photos... Both bids look like they can exceed what we need from a venue
19:31:19 <marga> I think both are ok in this sense
19:31:22 <RichiH_ctte> same
19:31:23 <moray> Yes
19:31:28 <tassia> tie for me
19:31:28 <Tincho> yes, great venues
19:31:29 <marga> #agreed Tie
19:31:38 <marga> #topic excellent network connectivity
19:31:46 <Tincho> marga: give a few seconds so people can talk :)
19:32:04 <vorlon> I may have looked at the CPT venue more closely than the MTL one because I was in Cape Town last week <cough> ;P but I agree that this looks like a tie
19:32:29 <vorlon> marga: what happened to 3 minutes per topic?
19:32:34 <gwolf> I think it will also be a tie in the end. I know there's a bit of missing details yet on MTL on this, but seeing the infrastructure of the venue, I doubt there'll be a real difference
19:32:41 <marga> vorlon, we spent way too much on the first too
19:32:57 <gwolf> ...In CPT we have the network administrator on our side, which is a plus ;-) But I wouldn't decide just on that basis
19:32:58 <hug> I think there won't be an issue with network connectivity with both venues
19:33:00 <n0rman_> here looks like we have an advantage for CPT since they have the IT person from UCT as local-team
19:33:04 <vorlon> and therefore you're changing topics before all members of the committee have had a chance to respond
19:33:05 <RichiH_ctte> i suspect both venues will have adequate network speed
19:33:08 <gwolf> I'd say tie
19:33:17 <rmayorga> can we include here how we will work with the network admin staffs on the venue ?
19:33:25 <RichiH_ctte> amount of ipv4 space is unclear, but i have more levarage with afrinic than with arin
19:33:30 <Tincho> rmayorga: what do you mean?
19:33:39 <ultrt> if its a cpt advantage it's slight: I expect both venues to have great connectivities
19:33:42 <Tincho> RichiH_ctte: I don't think ipv4 space is really a concern
19:33:45 <vorlon> ipv4 space in CPT is apparently a complete non-problem
19:33:50 <moray> I think it's a tie
19:33:51 <RichiH_ctte> wifi is impossible to tell at this point; but i suspect CPT would be more OK with us pulling cable
19:33:53 <ultrt> they're unis after all, so they should be sorted
19:33:54 <Tincho> no real need to hand over public ips
19:33:57 <h01ger> RichiH_ctte: i think debconf needs 5 ip addresses at max, we can also work with 3
19:33:58 <vorlon> anyway, tie
19:33:59 <RichiH_ctte> otoh, CPT has shitty access controls
19:34:00 <marga> I agree it's a tie
19:34:02 <h01ger> (v4)
19:34:11 <rmayorga> Tincho: willingness to help us on the network setup(ie having our own ssid, etc)
19:34:14 <tumbleweed_cpt> UCT has a /16 and some /24s - there are lots of IPs around
19:34:19 * h01ger also agrees it a tie, probably
19:34:23 <RichiH_ctte> h01ger, Tincho: i am a networker. we will have enough ip space :)
19:34:30 <marga> #agreed tie
19:34:31 <Tincho> :)
19:34:42 <marga> #topic  quality and quantity of food and drink in close proximity [including cafes etc. for off-site discussions]
19:35:27 <Tincho> I think mtl has a clear advantage here
19:35:28 <rmayorga> IMO, mtl is strong on this point
19:35:33 <marga> Yeah
19:35:36 <hug> this depends on the venue choice in CPT. the central location of the MTL venue is probably in advantage here
19:35:44 <marga> The advantage would be smaller in the second CPT venue
19:35:49 <Tincho> CPT is much better than I initially thought, but still
19:35:55 <ultrt> yes, but we shouldn't assume the backup venue
19:35:58 <gwolf> I think we could focus on a single venue
19:36:02 <ultrt> as it's listed as backup, so let's say mtl
19:36:03 <tumbleweed_cpt> UCT does have restuarants and pubs in walking distance
19:36:05 <marga> I mean versus the second CPT venue, but yes, we shouldn't assume that one.
19:36:10 <hug> I guess we need to convice the CPT team to switch to the backup venue :)
19:36:11 <gwolf> lets discuss using UCT only
19:36:22 <tumbleweed_cpt> hug: then we lose the price advantage
19:36:23 <moray> hug: In other aspects I think they made the right preference
19:36:34 <n0rman_> hug: backup venue isnt free, am I right?
19:36:37 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: yeah, but they are all >15m away, right?
19:36:42 <vorlon> this isn't actually clear to me from the mtl bid page what outside food is available and at what distance - do we assume food's available because it's downtown?
19:36:45 <tumbleweed_cpt> >15m absolutely :)
19:36:48 <RichiH_ctte> i suspect the quality/level of interest speaks for CPT; everythign else speaks for MTL
19:36:51 <tumbleweed_cpt> if m = metre
19:36:52 <h01ger> .oO( sounds like medium advantage for MTL )
19:37:00 <gwolf> I have never been to CPT, but I've been to McGill. And its location WRT bars and restaurants is hard to beat
19:37:01 <tumbleweed_cpt> about 15 min walk, I think
19:37:06 <RichiH_ctte> so yah, + for mtl
19:37:11 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: min, sorry :)
19:37:15 <hug> n0rman_: tumbleweed_cpt correct, it depends on the costs and it would reduce the price advantage to MTL
19:37:23 <marga> Alright, agreed advantage for MTL?
19:37:28 <n0rman_> agreed
19:37:29 <RichiH_ctte> aye
19:37:30 <tassia> vorlon, yes, downtown MTL has many options
19:37:31 <Tincho> yes
19:37:31 <gwolf> yup
19:37:34 <rmayorga> yes
19:37:35 <marga> #agreed Advantage to MTL
19:37:46 <marga> #topic suitable accommodation in close proximity
19:38:35 <marga> Both have the accom very close. I think CPT is slightly better for non-fancy attendees as it's "in campus", whereas MTL is slightly better for fancy attendees.
19:38:48 <rmayorga> for CPT, IIRC most of the of-venue facier accommodation requires a taxi/car
19:38:53 <Tincho> this is for sponored accom, right?
19:38:58 <moray> Tincho: not necessarily
19:39:00 <marga> Tincho, both
19:39:03 <Tincho> ah
19:39:14 <Tincho> because non-sponsored seems a bit tricky for CPT
19:39:16 <vorlon> marga: agreed
19:39:19 <tumbleweed_cpt> rmayorga: there is a *lot* fo on-venue accom
19:39:20 <marga> Tincho, also, consider self-paying staying-with-sponsored people.
19:39:21 <gwolf> ...I care more about sponsored (or lets say "common") accomodation
19:39:28 <RichiH_ctte> i find it hard to care for people who need/want fancy
19:39:31 <tumbleweed_cpt> rmayorga: you'd probably want a car for the off-venue accom, but it isn't required
19:39:35 <vorlon> Tincho: well, if by that you mean "hotels", yes
19:39:38 <gwolf> (i.e. people paying for their accom but staying at the dorms get the same advantages)
19:39:39 <tumbleweed_cpt> there is a hotel in walking distance
19:39:41 <rmayorga> tumbleweed_cpt: yes, agree, but I mean fancier as hotels
19:39:42 <gwolf> Few people stay in hotels
19:39:43 <h01ger> Tincho: why is non sponsored tricky for CPT?
19:39:50 <moray> RichiH_ctte:  I don't mind too much about "fancy", but some people have specific preferences
19:39:51 <marga> Tincho, not everyone that isn't sponsored wants fancy hotels.
19:39:53 <tumbleweed_cpt> and serveral fancy guest houses (nicer than hotels)
19:39:54 <Tincho> vorlon: yeah, hotels is the word :)
19:39:57 <vorlon> but it seems non-sponsored private accom would be possible at CPT via the "guest house" option
19:39:58 <hug> I had the impression, that there's a sponsored option nearby, and that self-paying was the problem am I wrong?
19:40:01 <tassia> people on fancy hotels wouldn
19:40:12 <RichiH_ctte> moray: unless they are medical, i find it similarly hard to care
19:40:13 <gwolf> And I guess that if people agree to have the small little luxury of a hotel, they can pay a daily taxi without too much thought
19:40:14 <tassia> wouldn't mind paying for a cab
19:40:28 <RichiH_ctte> gwolf: precisely
19:40:29 <h01ger> we dont have a significant number of people wanting "fancy" hotels. (not really fancy, but not youth hostel)
19:40:32 <rmayorga> but if you are fancy enough to stay in a 5 stars hotel, renting a car shouldn't be a problem
19:40:33 <vorlon> right; I don't think "hotel" is a requirement
19:40:36 <Tincho> no, I think we need to understand that people might want to pay for a room on their own
19:40:37 <moray> RichiH_ctte: I'm thinking things like "rooms set up for families", that our accommodation normally doesn't do that well
19:40:40 <gwolf> I think this point has a slight advantage for CPT
19:40:40 <hug> gwolf: me neither, as taxi prices seem cheap in CPT
19:40:41 <Tincho> I don't think that is unreasonable
19:40:46 <vorlon> the requirement AIUI is private accom w/ private bath
19:40:55 <Tincho> yeah, that is not fancy
19:41:02 <tumbleweed_cpt> I think we can do that within UCT residences
19:41:03 <Tincho> it is basic accommodation for many people
19:41:15 <h01ger> s#we dont have a significant #we do have a significant# - sigh
19:41:47 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: which one would that be?
19:41:53 <indiebio_cpt> food there is a lot that cpt can do great, but was not investigated https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Cape_Town/Venues/UCT_ChemEng#Accommodation
19:41:58 <ultrt> ok, so we agree on cpt and move on, people seem to be saying?
19:42:04 <marga> Alright, so, for people wanting to stay at a private room, there are options in both. For people wanting a bit more fancy, they will need to take a cab in CPT, but we probably don't care.
19:42:27 <tumbleweed_cpt> Tincho: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Cape_Town/Venues/UCT_ChemEng#Accommodation glenres (used to be a hotel) and all africa house
19:42:29 <vorlon> I'm not sure I see advantage to either side for this, it seems both are adequate
19:42:30 <RichiH_ctte> call for opinion?
19:42:35 * h01ger thinks this is slight advantage to MTL
19:42:43 <marga> In MTL the accom is "in the city" and probably more spread around, but also more variety.
19:42:46 <h01ger> though maybe its tie
19:42:46 <RichiH_ctte> about tied, with slight advantage for CPT
19:42:49 <marga> For me, this is a tie.
19:43:07 <ultrt> ok for tie as well
19:43:07 <vorlon> if I were to pick I'd say slight advantage CPT based on housing costs
19:43:20 <moray> vorlon: costs were in the earlier point
19:43:21 <gwolf> slight +CPT for me
19:43:25 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: how many people can they host?
19:43:26 <tassia> slight advantage for CPT, cost/benefit
19:43:31 <hug> I think CPT is cheaper from the prices I saw...
19:43:34 <vorlon> moray: too bad I'm saying it anyway
19:43:37 <marga> Alright, I'll do a split agreed
19:43:39 <ultrt> [1] cpt, [2] tie, [3] mtl, [4] further discussion :)
19:43:44 <indiebio_cpt> And these are up to date 2015, by the way
19:43:52 <marga> #agreed half on tie / half on slight CPT
19:44:02 <n0rman_> :)
19:44:05 <moray> marga: some were also +MTL
19:44:06 <marga> #topic  presentation facilities [talk spaces, not just AV equipment; including suitability for video team]
19:44:06 <Tincho> cpt seems cheaper, but not sure on the distances and all that
19:44:15 <tassia> I didn't follow
19:44:21 <tumbleweed_cpt> Tincho: apparently 138 students in glen. dunot' know about all africa house
19:44:22 <h01ger> marga: moray: please #save too
19:44:30 <moray> #save
19:44:33 <h01ger> thanks
19:44:40 <tumbleweed_cpt> Tincho: ah, 42 bedrooms
19:44:49 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: ah, completely misread, I thought it was <10 bedrooms :)
19:44:57 <marga> Please discuss on #debconf-discuss
19:45:05 <RichiH_ctte> presentation: both look fine; tie for me
19:45:15 <vorlon> has anyone looked at this deeply from a video team perspective?
19:45:21 <rmayorga> same here, not sure how to evaluate if it is suitable for the video team
19:45:24 <vorlon> I'd rather defer to the experts
19:45:37 <tumbleweed_cpt> vorlon: well, I do wear a video team hate
19:45:40 <tumbleweed_cpt> hat
19:45:47 <gwolf> h01ger, tiago`, tumbleweed_cpt: You have been videoteam guys
19:45:48 <tumbleweed_cpt> but I've only looked at the cape town side
19:45:50 <gwolf> ...?
19:45:53 <h01ger> rooms which are suited for talks are suited for video
19:45:58 <tumbleweed_cpt> and obviously, everything we've looked at is suitable
19:46:01 <gwolf> tumbleweed_cpt: tiago`can mention in -discuss, I'll relay
19:46:04 <h01ger> too many talk rooms are a concern
19:46:07 <vorlon> h01ger: unless you're not allowed to run cables?
19:46:21 <gwolf> tumbleweed_cpt: so we'd have both cities covered :)
19:46:23 <vorlon> (which was a last-minute dust-up at DC14)
19:46:27 <moray> vorlon: or if they have big windows behind the speakers, for example
19:46:28 <h01ger> vorlon: yeah.
19:46:53 <gwolf> tiago`: both are fine to me (for video)
19:46:58 <marga> Can we agree on a tie, or does anyone see an advantage for either team?
19:47:01 <gwolf> tiago`: sorry for the brevity :)
19:47:06 <RichiH_ctte> tie
19:47:09 <gwolf> tiago`: but i can't see any blocker here
19:47:09 <moray> this seems a tie to me
19:47:10 <ultrt> ok for tie
19:47:12 <gwolf> tie it is.
19:47:15 <marga> #agreed tie
19:47:29 <marga> #topic  travel logistics [including usefulness of nearby airports, and typical travel times for attendees]
19:47:48 <vorlon> so I think CPT is not out of bounds for what we've had in the past
19:48:02 <vorlon> especially compared with Extremadura and Bosnia, where air travel was only part of the story
19:48:15 <vorlon> but I do think MTL has the advantage here
19:48:18 <RichiH_ctte> both are ok, advantage for MTL
19:48:25 <moray> vorlon: I think it's fine considered for individuals, but with an advantage for MTL considering everyone together
19:48:26 <gwolf> Oh, Bosnia. A four day, three continent trip to get there :-|
19:48:27 <ultrt> vorlon: right. advantage for mtl, but cpt is not the most extreme we've gone :)
19:48:30 <tumbleweed_cpt> bosnia had a multi-hour bus ride. CPT would be 10 mins, and we've got very reasonable prices for a shuttle running every 15 mins
19:48:34 <marga> Agreed, CPT is ok, but there's a clear advantage for MTL for the majority of our attendees.
19:48:51 <rmayorga> agree, is easy to travel to MTL
19:48:55 <hug> I don't see an advantage for MTL, at least from europe, cost is about the same..
19:48:56 <tassia> MLT ++
19:49:01 <gwolf> Right, if trave time includes the flight itself, MTL wins clearly
19:49:06 <vorlon> hug: cost may be similar, but travel time is higher
19:49:13 <rmayorga> hug: time on the airports, etc
19:49:14 <Tincho> hug: the flihts are much longer
19:49:18 <n0rman_> hug: but it's abour nearby airports, travel times...
19:49:21 <rmayorga> airports and on flight
19:49:24 <vorlon> which contributes to the costs on people's bodies to sit in the tin can for so long
19:49:25 <gwolf> if it's only airport→venue, they'd be evaluated much more similar
19:49:26 <moray> hug: we also have a lot from the Americas, etc., whereas for MTL a large proportion of people are close to it
19:50:00 <marga> Can we agree on this?
19:50:07 <moray> marga: I agree with your summary
19:50:08 <gwolf> FWIW, I'd expect a large mass of North-East USA people to just travel by land to MTL
19:50:11 <marga> hug was the only dissenting voice, so please ack
19:50:31 * h01ger thinks this is an advantage to MTL. (though not more as CPT also is connected well.. and the venue is close to a very central airport)
19:50:32 <RichiH_ctte> both are ok, advantage for MTL
19:50:51 <Tincho> MTL+
19:51:00 <hug> yeah, both ok...
19:51:05 <Tincho> both ok, yes
19:51:07 <marga> #agreed Both are ok, advantage for MTL for the majority of our attendees.
19:51:16 <marga> #topic  accessibility [including for wheelchair users and for blind people]
19:51:40 <hug> MTL nearer for americas, CPT nearer for attendees from europe
19:51:53 <vorlon> hug: no, CPT is not nearer
19:51:56 <ultrt> hug: don't underestimate changing hemisphere :) :)
19:52:03 <marga> can we move on?
19:52:06 <hug> 11h vs 14h from ZRH :)
19:52:13 <marga> Anyone has anything to say regarding accessibilty?
19:52:27 <RichiH_ctte> accessibility: about the same, modulo the hill in CPT -- all in all, i can't judge that though
19:52:30 <hug> which IMO is about the smae
19:52:31 <hug> same
19:52:34 <tassia> tie?
19:52:38 <gwolf> tie?
19:52:43 <RichiH_ctte> bowtie
19:52:46 <hug> tie
19:52:52 <Tincho> both seem ok
19:53:09 <vorlon> yes looks like a tie to me
19:53:22 <moray> (yes)
19:53:26 <marga> I don't really know. The hill sounds tricky...
19:53:34 <moray> marga: hm, tell me more about it?
19:53:50 <RichiH_ctte> The university is on a steep hill, which makes things harder for wheelchairs, but there is a shuttle provided by the student disability services that will be available to us
19:53:51 <Tincho> marga: yeah, but I don't really know how much it affects
19:54:07 <tumbleweed_cpt> so, UCT is up against the mountain, and buildings are at significantly different levels
19:54:10 <h01ger> #info [20:53] < tiago`> not sure if it's the right time, but please take not that mtl bid agrees that CPT should have won on networking
19:54:12 <marga> Well, there were some descriptions that made me think it was kind complicated.  It's hard to know without having been there and experienced it.
19:54:16 <Tincho> shuttles are never a great idea..
19:54:16 <tumbleweed_cpt> 2-3 stories difference between neighbouring bulidigs is normal
19:54:19 <n0rman_> I have no idea on this, according to wiki page looks like both venues are fine on this
19:54:37 <tumbleweed_cpt> but you can usually find al evel route to an elevator in a lower building
19:54:42 <tumbleweed_cpt> (if going downhill)
19:54:55 <vorlon> Tincho: what's the concern with shuttles?
19:54:58 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: is it possible to move in a wheelchair around?
19:55:05 * h01ger is more worried about "unnoticed" hills and similar things, like main talk room having these fancy extra three stairs...
19:55:06 <tumbleweed_cpt> Tincho: absolutely
19:55:10 <moray> ok, so not a pure tie then from the clarification?
19:55:15 <Tincho> vorlon: depending on them for everyday stuff, I think that is not a workable thing, is it?
19:55:15 <lavamind_mtl> please be aware that McGill is not exactly on level grounds either
19:55:35 <vorlon> the talk rooms in CPT are all in a newly-build, accessible building
19:55:40 <Tincho> tumbleweed_cpt: if they can be navigated in a wheelchair, I don't see a problem
19:55:43 <vorlon> no three-extra-stair problem
19:55:45 * h01ger thinks its a tie cause both are modern universities with similar accom
19:55:52 <marga> Ok. Let's go with tie then.
19:55:54 * gwolf stays with tie
19:55:56 <marga> #agreed tie
19:55:59 * Tincho too
19:56:00 <marga> #save
19:56:09 <RichiH_ctte> as a summary
19:56:10 <RichiH_ctte> 20:23:05 <@marga> #agreed advantage to CPT regarding venue+accom, advantage to MTL regarding travel
19:56:10 <RichiH_ctte> 20:30:55 <@marga> #agreed slight advantage to CPT
19:56:10 <RichiH_ctte> 20:31:43 <@marga> #agreed Tie
19:56:10 <RichiH_ctte> 20:34:45 <@marga> #agreed tie
19:56:10 <RichiH_ctte> 20:37:50 <@marga> #agreed Advantage to MTL
19:56:12 <RichiH_ctte> 20:44:07 <@marga> #agreed half on tie / half on slight CPT
19:56:12 <RichiH_ctte> 20:47:30 <@marga> #agreed tie
19:56:13 <RichiH_ctte> 20:51:21 <@marga> #agreed Both are ok, advantage for MTL for the majority of our attendees.
19:56:13 <RichiH_ctte> 20:56:11 <@marga> #agreed tie
19:56:24 <h01ger> spammer
19:56:33 <h01ger> http://meetbot.debian.net/debconf-team/2015/debconf-team.2015-02-13-19.01.html has the same and more info
19:56:52 <vorlon> so by the numbers, I don't think that rules out either bid ;)
19:56:55 * gwolf sighs for lists that, weighted correctly or not, can point to staying at a tie :(
19:57:02 <moray> gwolf: no big surprise
19:57:07 <moray> gwolf: both bids clearly seem "good enough"
19:57:10 <gwolf> So, as a first cutoff... Both bids: Congratulations for a great job! :)
19:57:15 <pollo_mtl> woot
19:57:16 <vorlon> congrats to both teams for mounting credible bids and making the ctte's job harder
19:57:19 <gwolf> moray: yes, we've been getting better at this
19:57:20 <marga> :)
19:57:28 <tumbleweed_cpt> :P
19:57:30 <gwolf> but it does not translate to an easier job deciding :)
19:57:32 <RichiH_ctte> aye. i think both bids are well developed
19:57:40 <marga> Alright, let's do now the "each team has 10 minutes to respond"
19:57:47 <marga> We'll start at :00
19:57:52 <tumbleweed_cpt> marga: #topic ?
19:57:55 <h01ger> as its a tie i'd like to point out what tiago said: that MTL thinks CPT won networking
19:58:15 <ultrt> h01ger: ack on that information
19:58:16 <h01ger> but more importantly, i dont think all topics should be weighted eually
19:58:30 <marga> Let's do first CPT, then MTL
19:58:43 <tassia> the first ones used to have more weight
19:58:44 <h01ger> (the prio list is sorted downwards. less up, less important)
19:58:53 <tassia> h01ger, exactly
19:59:14 <h01ger> [20:58] <     tiago`> | h01ger, could you forward that: <tiago`> networking at mtl's venue is totally fine, but so far they didn't get anyone willing to help them in a kind way  as CPT did
19:59:30 * h01ger will try not to forward more from tiago` ;-)
19:59:36 <moray> h01ger: I'm not sure that's exactly true -- e.g. bad accessibility would be a killer
19:59:37 <marga> I'll de-moderate if people behave :)
19:59:40 <moray> surely?
19:59:51 <marga> #topic CPT comments to the committee impressions
19:59:56 <moray> tiago: ok, but that sounds like a "nice to have" rather than big difference
20:00:27 <tumbleweed_cpt> I think that was a fair evaluation of the bids
20:00:33 <RichiH_ctte> moray: less important items can still be a deal-breaker if they are not fulfilled at all; if there is no way to sleep or eat in 100 km around...
20:00:34 <vorlon> moray: we have more people wanting to attend DebConf bringing children than we do wanting to attend in wheelchairs...
20:00:40 <h01ger> moray: "less important" doesnt mean "not important"
20:01:09 <RichiH_ctte> but yah, let's shut up, move to -discuss, and leave the channel to CPT
20:01:28 <rmayorga> I'm a bit worry on the Exchange Control mentioned on the wiki and on-list
20:01:40 <h01ger> vorlon: people can leave their children behind (at least technically) but people in wheelchairs usually cant
20:01:45 <tumbleweed_cpt> I don't exactly have a whole lot to say in response to this discussion
20:02:14 <tumbleweed_cpt> I think the weaker areas in our bid could be made strong, with a bit of expense
20:02:23 <tumbleweed_cpt> e.g. shuttle busses to the airport make the public transport problem moot
20:02:28 <tumbleweed_cpt> (and to dinner, of course)
20:02:43 <Tincho> did we ever manage to successfully shuttle people to/from airports?
20:02:44 <marga> Actually, the weaker areas are getting there, and the shops in close proximity...
20:03:01 <tumbleweed_cpt> running our own pub on the campus (there's a nice tennis club building, just above the proposed venue) might solve some of the food and drink distance problems, too
20:03:07 <marga> I don't think you can fix either with extra money
20:03:19 <tumbleweed_cpt> shops are in close proximity
20:03:24 <tumbleweed_cpt> 15 mins walk isn't that far
20:03:31 <vorlon> Tincho: certainly
20:03:35 <h01ger> shuttles might work for single day events but not daily.
20:03:42 <vorlon> both Mexico and Nicaragua
20:03:49 <n0rman_> Tincho: in .ni we did it, hotel shuttle worked fine
20:03:56 <tumbleweed_cpt> h01ger: at <€1k per day for a shuttle, it's not that expensive
20:04:01 <gwolf> tumbleweed_cpt: depends for whom
20:04:06 <tumbleweed_cpt> sure
20:04:10 <Tincho> I don't remember how I got to ni. in mx I took a bus on my own
20:04:15 <h01ger> tumbleweed_cpt: affortable doesnt include "useful"
20:04:20 <gwolf> vorlon: in Mexico we did? Don't remember that..
20:04:27 <indiebio_cpt> we feel that the bid decision has been fair and reflecting well on both teams
20:04:35 <Tincho> in .ar we did for a few people, but it was messy
20:04:38 <gwolf> we set up people to help guide arrivals
20:04:39 <vorlon> gwolf: there was a bus service?  I thought it was organized :-)
20:04:45 <vorlon> anyway, off topic
20:04:50 <gwolf> vorlon: I was too distressed to even remember :)
20:04:55 <gwolf> In Bosnia we had
20:04:56 <gwolf> anyway :)
20:05:02 <indiebio_cpt> but we also feel that we have a really strong team, and was wll organised, which counts towards creating an impression for our future involvement
20:05:21 <marga> Thanks. Let's move on to MTL, then
20:05:25 <moray> vorlon: in Mexico we went to bus station together to reach the venue
20:05:30 <indiebio_cpt> I'm not done yet.
20:05:30 <moray> vorlon: not organised by the conference
20:05:31 <marga> #topic MTL comments to committe impressions
20:05:33 <marga> Sorry!
20:05:38 <marga> #topic CPT comments to the committee impressions
20:05:53 <rmayorga> gwolf: in mexico we have local team helping people to catch the bus, they wait on the airport when most of the people arrive
20:05:54 <n0rman_> 14:11 <@marga> Thanks. Let's move on to MTL, then
20:05:59 <indiebio_cpt> bbasically, if we have to host it at a later stage, we will be ok with that, but we would really like to host it in 2016 for various reasons
20:06:04 <indiebio_cpt> (mine being largely personal)
20:06:26 <ultrt> let's stop discussing mexico maybe? :)
20:06:27 <highvoltage_cpt> I've also made some big changes to make sure I have free time available both this year and next year for Debconf 16
20:06:34 <marga> Ppl, please discuss the variety of shuttles that we've had in the -discuss channel.
20:06:35 <highvoltage_cpt> (even changed jobs in part for that)
20:06:36 <indiebio_cpt> and hosting DebConf on a new continent we feel is really important
20:06:57 <highvoltage_cpt> so would also appreciate a 2016 bit but would be 100% willing to get involved again in a future bid otherwise
20:07:12 <indiebio_cpt> ++
20:07:53 <h01ger> indiebio_cpt: i dont understand why we should care about your personal situation?
20:08:06 <indiebio_cpt> this is true, hence it's in brackets.
20:08:08 <h01ger> indiebio_cpt: does that mean that if you drop out for whatever reasons, the bid is in danger?
20:08:10 <marga> Thanks, that's great to hear
20:08:21 <indiebio_cpt> absolutely not
20:08:26 <h01ger> so why 2016?
20:08:27 <indiebio_cpt> earlier just suits me better
20:08:30 <highvoltage_cpt> h01ger: nah, our whole team is 100% committed, that's one thing you can count on
20:08:39 <tumbleweed_cpt> h01ger: the bid is certainly stronger if we have indiebio_cpt and she has free time, she's been incredibly active
20:09:02 <indiebio_cpt> I am developing my career to incorporate hacking and open source into bioprocess control and analysis, and 2016 will fit in with the plan.
20:09:05 * h01ger nods, glad to hear
20:09:16 <indiebio_cpt> later wil mess with the plan
20:09:25 <highvoltage_cpt> EOF
20:09:32 <marga> #topic CPT comments to the committee impressions
20:09:38 <h01ger> debconf always messes with lives ;)
20:09:39 <Tincho> MTL?
20:09:45 <marga> #topic MTL comments to committe impressions
20:09:50 <marga> ... Sorry for the mess :)
20:10:11 <h01ger> didnt we also have that topic already?
20:10:19 <lavamind_mtl> our team also thinks that the evaluation was fair, although as tiago mentioned we feel CPT is slight + for networking
20:10:25 <marga> No, I thought they were done early. My fault
20:10:31 <lavamind_mtl> we know that McGill has fine infra
20:10:59 <lavamind_mtl> however the bureaucracy is a little unnerving, although if chosen we would definately work very hard on this front
20:11:31 <lavamind_mtl> hopefull they would warm up to DebConf of course
20:11:40 <lavamind_mtl> at this point this is hypothetical
20:11:41 <moray> lavamind_mtl: in other university setups we finally found a good contact, but rarely had it at the bid stage
20:11:48 <moray> for network topics
20:11:57 <gwolf> ...So, anything to comment on?
20:12:03 <Tincho> one thing I want to ask MTL about costs: is there a chance to rethink the huge security costs? (like, night hacklab or something)
20:12:13 <Tincho> it is really expensive as it is
20:12:17 <pollo_mtl> Tincho: nope, union fees
20:12:29 <Tincho> pollo_mtl: no, I mean moving somewhere else for the night
20:12:34 <Tincho> like dc7
20:12:37 <vorlon> can we just find a rave to crash with our computers as the night hacklab
20:12:40 <lavamind_mtl> if our bid is chosen we would not only work on the weak pint for Mcgill (including costs) but we would also work on backup solutions which are somewhat lacking
20:13:06 <pollo_mtl> Tincho: oh, I don't think we even thought about that
20:13:25 <lavamind_mtl> and lastly, our team is committed to presenting a 2017 bid if not chosen
20:13:26 <cyphermox_mtl> Tincho: I  had found some options for 24/7 hacklabs but unfortunately a way off of the venue
20:13:37 * h01ger really prefers no out of venue locations for night hacking
20:13:52 <Tincho> h01ger: yeah, but I wondered if the option was considered or not
20:13:55 <h01ger> for social reasons, including including the video team in social activities (and let them work too)
20:13:56 <moray> h01ger: I guess it would, hypothetically, be worth looking at as a backup option
20:14:00 <lavamind_mtl> not only us but many in the Mtl community feel that Mtl should get a DebConf in the coming years
20:14:03 <moray> h01ger: if budget was lacking for the security
20:14:08 <marga> h01ger, I guess everyone prefers, but if it doubles our venue costs, it's something to consider
20:14:19 <RichiH_ctte> lavamind_mtl: is this a hard committment?
20:14:24 * h01ger notes he used the word "prefer"... "affortable" is more important
20:14:30 <pollo_mtl> but please not that security cost can vary greatly. You all seem to consider the 'worst' scenario
20:14:35 <lavamind_mtl> RichiH_ctte: I can't speak for eveyone in the team but it is for me and pollo_mtl
20:14:58 <moray> RichiH_ctte: what is your "commitment" question about?
20:15:08 <lavamind_mtl> we already have a free venu option for 2017...
20:15:13 <RichiH_ctte> moray: 21:13:40 <+lavamind_mtl> and lastly, our team is committed to presenting a 2017 bid if not chosen
20:15:51 <moray> right
20:15:52 <gwolf> lavamind_mtl: Oh?
20:16:03 <moray> I find it hard to put much weight on commitments for 2017
20:16:06 <moray> people's lives change
20:16:09 <gwolf> lavamind_mtl: care to explain as to why by 2017 it will be a free venue?
20:16:14 <marga> Yeah, let's not discuss 2017 here.
20:16:23 <cyphermox_mtl> +1
20:16:26 <lavamind_mtl> gwolf: https://wiki.debconf.org/wiki/DebConf16/Bids/Montreal#Venues_which_fell_through
20:16:29 <h01ger> so CPT in 2016 and MTL in 2017 and we skip next years bid process? as the release team did with stretch and buster! \o/
20:16:38 <indiebio_cpt> ++
20:16:39 <h01ger> </joking>
20:16:40 <indiebio_cpt> :)
20:16:42 * gwolf takes note, thanks
20:16:43 <tassia> h01ger, hehehe
20:16:58 <highvoltage_cpt> h01ger: where would the fun be in that ;)
20:16:59 <marga> Alright, anything else from Montreal's team?
20:17:07 <moray> I also expect we will have some European bids for 2017
20:17:19 <h01ger> (i'd think that might be unfair for other 2017 bids, but... we could shrug that ;)
20:17:20 <tumbleweed_cpt> cambridge keeps promising one
20:17:22 <moray> (but who knows, it's too far off)
20:17:25 <marga> Please
20:17:30 <marga> Do not discuss DC17 now
20:17:36 <Tincho> focus!!
20:17:37 <marga> Anything else from MTL?
20:17:38 <lavamind_mtl> marga: that is all from the Mtl team
20:17:50 <marga> #topic Consensus building
20:18:59 <RichiH_ctte> overall, i am leaning towards CPT (and i fully intend to buy a round or three for the MTL team to force them to follow through with another bid for 2017)
20:18:59 <marga> So, according to our list, points in favor of CPT: affordable venue+board, slightly more experienced local team, slightly more network issues resolved, slightly better accommodation infrastructure
20:19:20 * h01ger would hope we agree that bringing debconf to new continents and cultures is a unspoken plus, breaking the (what appears as) tie rather clearly
20:19:21 * gwolf repeats RichiH_ctte line
20:19:27 <marga> Points in favor of MTL: affordable travel, closer and more varied food in close proximity, travel logistics
20:20:18 <hug> I think we have two strong bids, but I don't think it's acceptable for Debconf to pay 50k CAD just for the venue. Which will mean less money available for travel sponsorship and food/accomodation.
20:20:33 <ultrt> yes, definitely a niceness to bring debconf to a new place, especially on such a strong bid
20:21:03 <gwolf> the venue cost in MTL is too high, i agree with hug.
20:21:14 <ultrt> (it's harder when we want to do it, but there seems to be risks like in past years)
20:21:33 <vorlon> CPT is clearly a worse choice in terms of travel for the Americas.  But we've talked for a long time about having other locations besides the America/Europe rotation, and the only way to do that is by disrupting the rotation at some point
20:21:56 <ultrt> considering MTL is saying that they are willing to run again, and they want to run again with a cheaper venue, it seems that we can vote CPT for 2016, and recommend that they run next year?
20:21:56 <vorlon> does the ctte agree that if we do .za for 2016, we should prefer Americas again for 2017?
20:22:08 <moray> I don't see why that follows, no
20:22:11 <ultrt> (which would be fair since we didn't get "americas" in '16, I believe)
20:22:24 <Tincho> the new location is a strong plus; the venue cost is a problem, but I think it is something that could be worked.. I don't think I can vote either way
20:22:25 <gwolf> And even if on the side-channel we're discussing that DC17 should not be weighed into DC16's decision, I think that if we can have the Maisonneuve offer for DC17, we would have a *great* point for MTL17
20:22:33 <ultrt> (of course without excluding future bids and decisions)
20:22:35 <vorlon> moray: what doesn't follow?
20:22:36 <h01ger> actually given the list of strong points of each bid (and not just the summary) i think CPT actually is the stronger bid. MTL is definitly also "strong", aka very good + totally suitable and great as well. (and we have been bitten by both in the past...;)
20:22:38 <gwolf> vorlon: No, for DC17 the starting point would be "avoid Africa"
20:22:48 <moray> vorlon: that we would go to Americas, rather than "not southern Africa"
20:22:51 <marga> I think that if we do CPT in 16, we can do anywhere in the northern hemisphere in 17
20:23:37 <moray> right
20:23:38 <RichiH_ctte> same
20:23:43 <tassia> we won't decide now for the 2 coming years
20:23:48 <marga> Indeed
20:23:57 <h01ger> vorlon: i'd think we go into "three continent rotation" (by default) then: after .za it will (or should) be europe again, then the americas, then hopefully africa again...
20:23:59 <n0rman_> there is not a rule about having DC one year in Americas and other year in Europe, it's something that is happening but not a rule.. am I right?
20:24:01 <gwolf> ...If we get an *incredible* and *incredibly cheap* venue anywhere in the North hemisphere, it would compete with MTL17 — but I think MTL17 would win hands-down (hypothetically of cours)
20:24:12 <vorlon> moray, gwolf: that implies we might have no DebConf in the Americas for 4 years
20:24:21 <vorlon> h01ger: why would Europe be both before and after Africa in the rotation?
20:24:29 <gwolf> vorlon: Well, yes. That's what happens given enough continents in the world
20:24:32 <h01ger> n0rman_: "switching continents" is the rule afaik..
20:24:35 * gregoa thinks the potentially free venue in 2017 shouldn't be held against MTL in 2016
20:24:40 <marga> There is no rule
20:24:43 <marga> There never was
20:24:43 <tassia> let's discuss future years after this decision?
20:24:46 <marga> Yes
20:24:50 <h01ger> vorlon: ups. only because i f*cked up and skipped dc15 :)
20:24:56 <vorlon> tassia: nope; this weighs into how I vote
20:24:58 <Tincho> i think the points about 17 are unfair to be discussed now
20:25:03 <vorlon> h01ger: ah, heh
20:25:06 <marga> Agreed
20:25:22 <rmayorga> agree on Tincho's
20:25:23 <Tincho> me no gramar now
20:25:28 <tassia> vorlon, there has never been a strict rule
20:25:43 <tassia> and we won't define it now
20:25:45 <marga> Do we have a decision?
20:25:48 <RichiH_ctte> again, can we move dc17 to -discuss or after this meeting?
20:25:49 <vorlon> tassia: which is why I'm raising this for *discussion* in the committee, as it influences my vote
20:25:50 <h01ger> so... consenus on CPT then? rough consensus maybe? :)
20:26:06 <hug> there shouldn't be a fixed rule. maybe there's a bid from japan next year, who knows :)
20:26:08 <Tincho> not sure
20:26:12 <RichiH_ctte> can all ctte members state on one line what they prefer?
20:26:22 <marga> I think the general feeling is that both bids are very strong, but there is a sum of slight advantages to CPT, including the fact that it would be a new continent.
20:26:24 <RichiH_ctte> this would make counting less error-prone
20:26:33 * RichiH_ctte votes CPT
20:26:41 * gwolf inclines for CPT
20:26:58 * h01ger dont think we should/need vote
20:27:29 * hug thinks both are strong bids, but I don't feel comfortable paying such a huge amount just for the venue in MTL. I vote CPT.
20:27:30 * ultrt_ cpt
20:27:32 * Tincho has different reasons to prefer each
20:28:27 * marga cpt
20:28:37 * tassia prefers not to vote
20:28:51 <cate> n0rman_: you should vote
20:29:02 * n0rman_ cpt
20:29:05 <moray> I think I'd prefer not to vote unless a chair casting vote is needed
20:29:05 <cate> oops wrong windows
20:29:15 <rmayorga> cate: but you it worked
20:29:22 <marga> vorlon, ?
20:29:22 <rmayorga> you make it*
20:29:29 <n0rman_> rmayorga: cate  :)
20:29:39 <h01ger> we should find consensus, not vote
20:29:45 <h01ger> its something else...
20:29:56 <gwolf> h01ger: but it seems we *did* find consensus
20:29:59 <tassia> I think we have rough consensus
20:30:00 <marga> I thnk the consensus has basically been found
20:30:03 <gwolf> the request was, "what they prefer"
20:30:06 <Tincho> well, many people prefer cpt, it seems
20:30:11 <gwolf> we didn't make this a full-vote
20:30:14 <h01ger> anyhow, another thing what i think should be: the continent rule should be: "switch continents, prefer continents which havent seen a debconf for the longest time"
20:30:33 <gwolf> h01ger: Yes. And I'd add that line of yours as a #info / #agree
20:30:34 <moray> h01ger: so antarctica next?
20:30:38 <gwolf> and frame it in gold letters.
20:30:48 * h01ger wonders what the MTL and CPT bids think
20:30:49 <RichiH_ctte> marga: i agree
20:30:50 <moray> (I don't think it quite works, although I agree with the intention behind it)
20:31:01 <RichiH_ctte> marga: given the amount of chatter, it seems quite clear
20:31:17 <tumbleweed_cpt> obviously I'm biased towards my own bid
20:31:20 <gwolf> Anyway, I have to leave (just as I said) by 14:30 localtime, which is in 4 minutes... So...
20:31:23 <h01ger> gwolf: the one from #discuss which should go to slashdot? ;)
20:31:26 <tumbleweed_cpt> (even though a little bit scared)
20:31:29 <gwolf> Can we say we have reached a decision?
20:31:44 <h01ger> we used to include the bids in the decision
20:31:45 <vorlon> gwolf: funny, I thought Saudi Arabia was the only country on solar time
20:31:58 <lavamind_mtl> I think I can say the Mtl team looks forward in meeting you all in Germany and/or SA :)
20:32:00 <h01ger> gwolf: so i would prefer to hear them, even if that means, you might leave before we decide
20:32:23 <vorlon> I think there is a consensus here for CPT
20:32:37 <tassia> lavamind_mtl, maybe in a mini-debconf?
20:32:40 <Tincho> mtl, anything to say here?
20:32:55 <moray> h01ger: MTL already seemed to say they (strangely) prefer to bid for 2017 than have 2016, and CPT don't seem likely to suddenly withdraw, so...
20:32:59 <gwolf> OK. We are still in a meetng, and I'm not supposed to cheer yet. But thanks a lot for one of the *best*  bid selection meetings I can remember
20:33:02 <gwolf> And see you 'round!
20:33:07 * gwolf hugs world
20:33:11 <lavamind_mtl> tassia: yes mini-debconf has been brouhg tup in our team and we would be enthusiastic to host one
20:33:14 <Tincho> bye gunnar!
20:33:19 <indiebio_cpt> glad to be part of it, frustrations and all :)
20:33:20 * h01ger hugs gwolf
20:33:53 <Tincho> well...?
20:34:07 <RichiH_ctte> fwiw, #debian-quebec is already talking about a mini-dc instead of dc16, about dc17, and beer
20:34:10 <RichiH_ctte> well, "beer"
20:34:11 <marga> #agreed Cape Town to host DebConf16
20:34:17 <tumbleweed_cpt> \o/
20:34:22 <h01ger> \o/
20:34:30 <lavamind_mtl> Congratulations CPT!!
20:34:31 <RichiH_ctte> MTL team: thank you!
20:34:31 <pollo_mtl> gg cpt
20:34:32 <tumbleweed_cpt> thank you everyone, we hope to have a great debconf in 2016
20:34:38 <marga> Thank you to both bids to the work done
20:34:38 <vorlon> \o/
20:34:43 * h01ger cheers the MTL bid, please keep on and do debconf!
20:34:46 <rmayorga> thanks MTL team, great bid
20:34:52 <Tincho> wow, did she just resign? :)
20:34:53 <ultrt_> MTL: looking forward for your '17 bid!
20:34:54 <lavamind_mtl> I would also add that this meeting was very enjoyable
20:35:05 <tumbleweed_cpt> she has an early bedtime
20:35:10 <lavamind_mtl> thank you all, our next bid will certainly be much stronger
20:35:11 * h01ger thanks marga for great chairing
20:35:14 <Tincho> lavamind_mtl: you promised a bid for 17, we will remember that!
20:35:21 <marga> :)
20:35:28 <ultrt_> Tincho: who resigned?
20:35:39 <ultrt_> congratulations cpt!
20:35:40 <Tincho> [20:34:53] * indiebio_cpt se ha marchado (Quit: Page closed)
20:35:41 <lavamind_mtl> Tincho: DebConf17/Montreal will be up in munites ;)
20:35:48 <lavamind_mtl> minutes*
20:35:50 <Tincho> lavamind_mtl: good :)
20:35:55 <RichiH_ctte> marga: endmeeting?
20:36:07 <Tincho> thanks to all involved. It's been one of the best decision meetings in a long time
20:36:09 <h01ger> lavamind_mtl: *g*
20:36:10 <ultrt_> I'll go as well, good night!! :)
20:36:15 <marga> Sure, I was just waiting to capture the last messages
20:36:35 <nattie> she'll be back :)
20:36:40 <marga> #endmeeting