18:01:34 <tzafrir> #startmeeting
18:01:34 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jun  1 18:01:34 2020 UTC.  The chair is tzafrir. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:01:34 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:01:58 <tzafrir> #topic Roll Call
18:02:01 <nattie> heya
18:02:06 <terceiro> hello
18:02:15 <karina> hey
18:02:17 <shachar> Accounted for
18:02:20 <gwolf> ohai
18:02:27 <tumbleweed> \o
18:02:36 <kesaev> shalom
18:02:53 <shachar> kesaev, שלום וברכה
18:04:37 <shachar> DLange isn't here?
18:05:51 <tzafrir> I guess it's time to start
18:06:05 <tzafrir> #topic Venue availability changes
18:06:24 <tzafrir> (Regarding the TODO: see later in the meeting)
18:07:15 <tzafrir> The exams were postponed this year, and require more space. And thus the university needs more rooms.
18:08:05 <tzafrir> We cannot easily have the rooms we wanted to have (and that are currently booked for us).
18:08:39 <shachar> Because 2020 didn't pile on enough problems
18:09:24 <gwolf> Well, it's a fallout of the same problem... :-\
18:10:08 <tumbleweed> tzafrir: dormitories?
18:10:09 <karina> plus there is the renovation the doorms
18:10:25 <tumbleweed> hrm, where are the students staying while they write their exams, then?
18:10:49 <shachar> tumbleweed, in the classrooms, I should hope.
18:10:56 <karina> hh
18:10:59 <gwolf> heh
18:11:10 <tumbleweed> I mean, if the dorms are being renovated?
18:11:20 <terceiro> staying as in living/sleeping
18:11:37 <karina> i know that at the technion most of the students asked to opt out of their rent
18:12:10 <karina> (technion = another uni in haifa)
18:12:28 <shachar> tumbleweed, as a guess, I'd say that anything administrative is so upside down right now that this is the least of everyone's worries.
18:12:38 <terceiro> is there anything we need to decide wrt this point?
18:12:51 <terceiro> or it just an extra bit of information that we need to be aware?
18:12:54 <tumbleweed> shachar: yeah, and ours too :(
18:13:19 <gwolf> I know our decision is to be taken a week from now, but...
18:13:29 <gwolf> Do you see it *feasible* to hold a conference?
18:13:43 <tzafrir> No. Not really.
18:13:47 <shachar> gwolf, let's discuss the Covid-19 situation, and then discuss that
18:13:48 <gwolf> A ~50 people conference, and I think it's aiming high...
18:13:51 <gwolf> right
18:14:03 <shachar> if the problem was solely administrative, we might have been able to pull something off
18:14:05 <gwolf> but everything is part of everything...
18:14:34 <tzafrir> #info due to exams postponed, room availability in the university is a problem
18:15:14 <shachar> tzafrir, anything else on this topic?
18:15:23 <tzafrir> #info Likewise there is renovation in the dormitories, which makes them less available.
18:16:11 <tzafrir> #topic Covid-19 second wave updates
18:16:31 <shachar> I uploaded the new infections graph as of today to the Wiki
18:16:46 <shachar> https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Faq
18:17:13 <shachar> Basically, two weeks ago (almost exactly) the schools went back to normal mode of operation
18:17:32 <shachar> full capacity, with some social distancing rules in place that are basically impossible to follow
18:18:00 <shachar> About a week ago the numbers, that up until that point were steadily declining, started reversing.
18:18:34 <shachar> A week ago we had 5 new infections. Since then we have had numbers going up, with 98 new infections today
18:19:09 <shachar> So far, the response has mostly been to close down schools where even one student have tested positive, but it is unlikely to be sufficient
18:19:30 <shachar> Even if it is, this means that reopening international travel is unlikely to proceed.
18:19:57 <gwolf> ...and also that it is possible that the university will close with no lead time for us to have a plan B in place
18:20:29 <shachar> That's all we know today. The regulations still allow up to 100 people for in-person conferences, but, again, it is unclear what will happen going forward
18:20:53 <shachar> We have almost three months until the conference. That's enough time for the numbers to go up and then down again.
18:21:14 <terceiro> thanks for the update
18:21:55 <shachar> Personally, I see no difference between "no international travel" and "travel allowed but travelers need to quarantine for two weeks _either_ on arrival _or_ on return".
18:22:35 <shachar> As such, as far as I'm concerned, and the local team quite agrees with this conclusion, we think holding the conference in person this years is not the best option
18:22:51 <shachar> I should stress, this is true even if we clear the administrative problems mentioned before.
18:23:33 <tumbleweed> yeah, it's really hard to imagine that we could go ahead and have a useful in-person conference
18:23:46 <tumbleweed> things may be opening up, but slowly. Very slowly
18:23:53 <shachar> I think we have all the information to have a go/no-go discussion now.
18:24:06 <shachar> Another week won't help us much
18:24:18 <gwolf> shachar: It is quite painful to read, but it's also the unavoidable truth ☹
18:24:20 <terceiro> +1
18:25:15 <shachar> Local team best case scenario is that everyone move back one year.
18:25:43 <terceiro> both kosovo and india already said they are OK with shifting their debconfs by 1 year
18:26:13 <tumbleweed> if we do that, then we should still consider doing an online event this year
18:26:22 <shachar> To be fair, Kosovo did profess a preference to keeping their original date, but yes, they were not totally against moving.
18:26:25 <tumbleweed> and it would need people to run it. I'd hope that all 3 of those teams could pitch in
18:26:40 <shachar> tumbleweed, I can only speak for myself, but I would love to
18:27:01 <tumbleweed> yeah, when they bid, I asked, and heard that it'd be harder for them a year later
18:27:14 <gwolf> shachar: Yes, I also have a slight preference of COVID not having had happened :-]
18:27:21 <tumbleweed> :P
18:27:37 <gwolf> We must plan according to where we stand...
18:28:02 <shachar> gwolf, so long as it's only slight.
18:28:24 <gwolf> Well, TBH I am now enjoying the extra time with the kids... So...
18:29:16 <tumbleweed> where does sponsorship stand, if we postpone a year?
18:29:49 <gwolf> ... shachar: Thank you very much (to the whole team!) for being professional and as objective as possible. The work you have put in so far is a _lot_, and I really hope next year this whole mess is over and we can back to a normality-with-as-little-quote-marks-as-possible
18:29:55 <terceiro> or can the sponsorship be transfered to an online conference?
18:30:10 <tumbleweed> that probably depends on the sponsors, we'd probably have to reach out
18:30:22 <shachar> terceiro, at the very least, I'd assume the sponsors would need to have a choice
18:30:28 <terceiro> yes
18:30:33 <terceiro> once we make a decision there are a lot of details to be sorted out
18:30:46 <gwolf> re:sponsorship -- Our needs are not zero, but are quite different. Some sponsors will be happy to maintain their presence online. Some will see it as a very different thing
18:30:52 <gwolf> And our needs are also very differnt
18:31:35 <shachar> I think we lost one of the IRC servers
18:31:57 <shachar> It's that, or Covid-19 started working way faster
18:32:15 <terceiro> really? I have join/leaves hidden so I didn't notice
18:32:41 <shachar> A bunch of disconnects, all from helix.oftc.net
18:32:41 <tumbleweed> looks like a bad netsplit
18:33:46 <shachar> So, what's next?
18:34:26 <shachar> Do we even have talk proposals?
18:35:05 <terceiro> we had something like 2 the last time I checked
18:35:18 <terceiro> 6 now
18:35:18 <tumbleweed> I guess we should prepare an agenda for the discussion next week so that we can try to prepare on all the topics
18:35:25 <tzafrir> #agreed it is not feasible to hold an in-person conference this year.
18:35:49 <anisa> Hello, sorry I am late.. I am reading the thread to catch up
18:35:51 <terceiro> well if we agree on that there is no point in deciding next week?
18:35:52 <tzafrir> So we need to check with sponsors
18:36:04 <gwolf> ... And I have to leave you now
18:36:08 <terceiro> tzafrir: I don't think we do
18:36:10 <gwolf> Time to get back to the family
18:36:11 <tzafrir> Or should we first try to figure out what we do?
18:36:22 <gwolf> Sorry for always leaving meetings early :-(
18:36:24 <terceiro> either they agree to sponsor the online version
18:36:28 * gwolf runs
18:36:31 <terceiro> or we have to give their money back
18:36:43 <shachar> gwolf, the guilty flees where none persuth
18:36:51 <tzafrir> What does "online" mean? Any chance in itcludes some RL aspects?
18:36:52 <terceiro> or they agree to carry the sponsorship for the next in-person conf
18:37:03 <gwolf> shachar: :-]
18:37:05 <terceiro> tzafrir: the details would be TBD
18:37:13 <gwolf> TBH I should have been there for ~35min already
18:37:24 <gwolf> but I don't want to abuse goodwill!
18:38:08 <tzafrir> So, anybody wants to take the task of contacting sponsors?
18:38:34 <tumbleweed> tzafrir: I think whatever we do should probably be online-first
18:38:38 <tzafrir> And by next meeting we come up with some ideas for "online"?
18:38:58 <nattie> sure
18:38:58 <tumbleweed> it's hard to have in-person components to that. Video-conferences work best when everyone is in their own silent room with a headset
18:40:21 <tumbleweed> So, I'm drafting what I think are the discussion topics, in the agenda doc
18:41:22 <shachar> Can you remind me of the URL?
18:41:35 <tumbleweed> #link https://deb.li/dc20meet
18:44:52 <shachar> Since we were relying on a University for a venue, winter conference is more difficult
18:44:53 <terceiro> to me it looks like the decision has been made and next meeting will be about operational details
18:45:03 <shachar> terceiro, +1
18:45:46 <tumbleweed> at least from the people here, I was hearing no argument against that decision
18:45:54 <gregoa> the decision needs to be announced as well …
18:46:09 <tumbleweed> I think we should decide what the online part looks like
18:46:18 <tumbleweed> (if, when, what, etc.)
18:46:26 <tumbleweed> before announcing
18:46:31 <tumbleweed> but also shouldn't let that take weeks
18:46:47 <terceiro> I don't think we need to batch those things
18:46:54 <terceiro> what are we trying to save? emails?
18:47:43 <shachar> terceiro, /dev/null filled up on me once. Trust me, you don't want that to happen
18:47:53 <shachar> random logs overflowing all over the place
18:47:55 <tumbleweed> from my PoV, trying to send a clear message
18:48:15 <terceiro> "we decided to not have debcofn in-person in 2020, and move to an online conference. we will publicize details in the next weeks"
18:48:24 <shachar> +1
18:48:37 <shachar> "Clear message" and "only announce when we know everything" are not the same thing
18:49:12 <terceiro> I even volunteer to write and send an announcement
18:49:35 <tumbleweed> terceiro: that sounds good to me
18:49:45 <tumbleweed> I wasn't sure that we'd agreed that we were doing an online conference, yet
18:49:49 <terceiro> my concern is that figuring out all the bits we want for the online version *will* take more than 1 week
18:50:37 <shachar> tumbleweed, we can say "no in-person in 2020, we're trying to check feasibility of an online conference instead. Details to follow when we have them"
18:50:51 <tumbleweed> that would be good too
18:51:07 <terceiro> yes that works too
18:51:28 <shachar> The general atmosphere is that people are very weary of us deciding on an in-person 2020, and I think we should let them know about that aspect earlier rather than later
18:51:39 <terceiro> exactly
18:51:49 <tumbleweed> agreed
18:52:12 <shachar> Announcing progress follow the same rule as elections.
18:52:19 <shachar> You know: "Vote early, vote often"
18:52:34 <tumbleweed> people usually don't complain about too much transparency
18:53:03 <tzafrir> #action terceiro to send a short announcement that there will be no in-person conference in 2020 and further details will follow
18:53:10 <tzafrir> Anything else?
18:53:16 <shachar> I don't think so
18:53:17 <tumbleweed> I guess we should get that up on the website
18:53:24 <shachar> Nothing that's still relevant, at least.
18:53:38 <larjona> I think you should decide if all the debconfs are postponed one year, for one side (first part of the announcement), and on the other side, if you'll try to make an online DebConf in 2020, and call for people to join the team (quickly!) (second part of the announcement)
18:54:04 <terceiro> larjona: we will, we just can't do that right now
18:54:09 <shachar> DO we have quorum for that decision?
18:54:10 <tumbleweed> put in a call to join the meeting next week where we figure this out?
18:54:22 <terceiro> tumbleweed: I think we should open a discussion in the ML to gain time
18:54:26 <larjona> I mean, there are two decisions to make
18:54:56 <terceiro> it's actually 3
18:54:59 <terceiro> 1) debconf20
18:55:14 <terceiro> err, scratch that
18:56:09 <terceiro> 1) whether to cancel debconf in-person in 2020 -> decided
18:56:17 <terceiro> 2) whether to hold debconf20 online
18:56:31 <terceiro> 3) what to do with debconfs in Haifa, Kosovo, and India
18:56:37 <terceiro> 3 decisions
18:56:52 <larjona> ok
18:56:54 <terceiro> 1 of them can be made now
18:57:01 <terceiro> the others need more time
18:57:17 <tumbleweed> 2 is the most urgent, though
18:57:22 <terceiro> yes
18:57:25 <tumbleweed> (and everything around it)
18:58:49 <tumbleweed> yeah, we can start those discussions on the mailing list now
18:59:12 <tumbleweed> so, shachar, you were asking about quorum
18:59:44 <tumbleweed> if the venue seems to not be an option, then that's pretty simple, and quorum probably isn't relevant
18:59:57 <tumbleweed> and that's what I'm hearing from all of you on the ground
19:00:37 <shachar> quite
19:00:42 <terceiro> we also have pretty clear feedback from the community that we should cancel in-person even if that was not the case
19:01:08 <tumbleweed> of the committee, 3/5 seemed in agreement here
19:01:40 <tumbleweed> I think that's safe to call decided
19:02:33 <tumbleweed> terceiro: shall we move on to the poll item?
19:02:38 <terceiro> sure
19:02:58 <tzafrir> #topic Poll
19:03:02 <terceiro> ok
19:03:17 <terceiro> Last night I compiled the results of the survey
19:03:36 <terceiro> #link https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/data/dc20/-/tree/master/survey
19:03:43 <terceiro> in short:
19:04:00 <terceiro> #info Support for having an in-person component of DebConf20 among all the respondents is 11%, while it's 24% among the people who were previously planning to go
19:04:14 <terceiro> #info Of the people previously planning to travel to Haifa, 26% think it's likely (4
19:04:14 <terceiro> and 5 in the scale) they would come.
19:04:38 <tumbleweed> (if they could)
19:04:42 <terceiro> #info 77% of the respondents would be willing to participate in an entirely online DebConf. Among the people previously planning to travel to Haifa, that number is even higher: 79%.
19:05:30 <terceiro> I didn't have time to summarize the free-form text comments yet
19:05:52 <terceiro> but I would say that there is nothing we don't already know in there
19:06:20 <terceiro> EOT
19:06:58 <tumbleweed> it's pretty clear from that that if it were to have gone ahead in-person, it'd be a <50 person conference
19:07:24 <tumbleweed> that feels more like something that should be called a miniconf
19:08:25 <tumbleweed> are we done?
19:08:32 <tzafrir> I guess we are.
19:08:41 <terceiro> I'm done
19:08:53 <tzafrir> #topic AoB
19:09:12 <tzafrir> Next meeting: a week from now?
19:09:30 <nattie> eh, sure
19:09:33 <tumbleweed> I was suggesting that to make online planning
19:09:35 <tzafrir> Mon. June 8th
19:09:41 <nattie> got nowhere else to be
19:09:53 <terceiro> +1 from me
19:10:15 <tzafrir> #agreed Next meeting is in one week: Mon. Jun. 8th, 18:00 UTC
19:10:30 <terceiro> I think we will need to do a little concentrated effort the next weeks if we want to put an online debconf together
19:10:44 <terceiro> at least to have a plan
19:10:50 <tumbleweed> yeah
19:10:52 <terceiro> but I think we will manage
19:11:06 <tumbleweed> hopefully the video team still has energy after the online miniconf, because this is going to be very heavy on them
19:11:11 <_rene_> :(
19:11:15 <_rene_> but understandable
19:11:25 <terceiro> I was going to say
19:11:31 <terceiro> the minidc online during the weekend was great
19:11:56 <tzafrir> Shall we wrap things up?
19:12:02 <tumbleweed> +1
19:12:06 <terceiro> tzafrir: yes please
19:12:07 <tzafrir> #endmeeting