18:00:12 <nattie> #startmeeting
18:00:12 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jul  5 18:00:12 2021 UTC.  The chair is nattie. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:12 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:20 <bittin-> one is in August and the other one in July but both has planning on Mondays
18:00:28 <bittin-> for voluenteers
18:00:35 <nattie> #link https://deb.li/dc21meet agenda, as ever
18:00:40 <nattie> #topic roll call
18:00:43 * bittin- is here
18:00:44 <nattie> say hi if you're here
18:00:46 <nattie> if not, don't
18:00:56 <pwaring> o/
18:01:07 <DLange> hi if you're here
18:01:28 * nattie hands DLange the prize
18:01:45 <tzafrir> here
18:01:46 <zleap> just checking in
18:01:50 * DLange prepares a thank you speech
18:02:05 <joeDoe> here sorta, off and  on
18:02:07 <zleap> my be slow as I am copying stuff to an external hdd and it seems to be slowing things down
18:02:29 <tumbleweed> o/
18:02:31 <mollydb> hi
18:02:45 <nattie> looks like a reasonably full complement now
18:02:52 <nattie> #topic last meeting's actions
18:03:00 <nattie> #info there were no action items at the last meeting
18:03:14 <nattie> #topic cut-off strategy for USD50 bursaries
18:03:49 <nattie> The bursaries team asks whether to err on the side of caution or generosity when allocating the bursaries which go up to the value of USD50 each
18:04:17 <nattie> copied from agenda:
18:04:19 <nattie> Options are: grant to ... 1) people we know or wrote reasonable arguments (possibly err on the side of not reaching out to everybody), 2) anybody not clearly a scammer (possibly err on the side of being generous) [Info, total is currently 21-06-24 600 USD]
18:04:27 <bittin-> i would say caution 1:
18:04:55 <nattie> Tobi_: are you Tobias Preuss?
18:05:11 <pwaring> if we have the money, I would say 2
18:05:24 <Tobi_> Hi. Yes
18:05:41 <tumbleweed> I would tend towards 1
18:05:42 <nattie> cool, welcome.  the item about EventFahrplan is next up, so good timing
18:06:08 <DLange> 2:1 so far, nattie what's your take?
18:06:08 <Tobi_> Nice
18:06:25 <nattie> DLange: how big is the difference between the two options?
18:06:29 <tumbleweed> we always want to attract a wider audience, but we're not trying to buy it
18:06:45 <DLange> nattie: probably 500 USD
18:07:06 <nattie> instinctively i would say err towards caution
18:07:13 <zleap> i agree there
18:07:33 <nattie> there's the slight risk of missing a legitimate applicant, i suppose
18:07:41 <DLange> so 4:1, that's good enough. We'll be cautious then but not restrictive
18:07:52 <joeDoe> 5:1
18:08:03 <nattie> #agreed the bursaries team will be cautious but not restrictive when allocating these bursaries
18:08:06 <DLange> thanks
18:08:14 <nattie> #topic EventFahrplan
18:08:30 <nattie> Tobi_: sorry to plunge you into it directly, but: speeeeeeeeeeeak :)
18:09:00 <nattie> for context: Tobi_ has proposed EventFahrplan as a potential replacement for things like Giggity
18:09:28 <Tobi_> How much do you know already? What can I add?
18:09:36 <bittin-> as an Android app to watch the Schedule: https://github.com/EventFahrplan/EventFahrplan
18:09:48 <DLange> #link https://lists.debian.org/debconf-team/2021/07/msg00001.html
18:09:55 <DLange> ^Tobi's email to -team
18:10:11 <nattie> #link https://eventfahrplan.eu/
18:10:16 <nattie> (just for completeness)
18:10:18 <Tobi_> thx
18:10:19 <bittin-> i saw your email and think its a good idea, but want also to keep the schedule as a webpage and iCal to import to my Google Calendar, but having an Android app is also a good idea
18:10:36 <bittin-> #link https://github.com/EventFahrplan/EventFahrplan
18:10:49 <nattie> i would think that EventFahrplan would be in addition to the schedule on the website, not to replace it
18:10:57 <bittin-> sounds good
18:11:09 <nattie> is that impression correct?
18:11:16 * tumbleweed still needs to look at the differences between frab and pentabarf xml
18:11:33 <Tobi_> Did you ever take a look at Pretalx or Frab?
18:11:44 <Tobi_> Both are successors of Pentabarf?
18:11:50 <Tobi_> Both are successors of Pentabarf.
18:11:51 <DLange> that's too German, Tobi_
18:11:52 <bittin-> more Pretalx to be honest
18:12:01 <DLange> they are not really used outside the CCC bubble
18:12:03 <nattie> DLange: wait, we know Germans?!
18:12:07 * terceiro here now (sorry, got distracted.)
18:12:35 <bittin-> DLange: its different systems used for tickets and planning and well Arch Linux Conference Online last year used Pretalx so used that a bit there and used it a bit but more as a user at FOSDEM/FSCons frab that is
18:12:36 <tumbleweed> Tobi_: no, we went from pentabarf to summit to wafer
18:12:54 <zleap> +1 to schedule as a webpage and calender file
18:13:04 <tumbleweed> zleap: this is the status quo
18:13:48 <zleap> ok
18:13:51 <Tobi_> I agree that an app is always "just" an addition to the webpage, ical, ...
18:13:51 <tumbleweed> I do like the defined XML schema that frab xml has, pentabarf XML compatibility in wafer was the result of a lot of guessing, and doing whatever made giggity happy
18:14:34 <DLange> is the ical not something that can be consumed by the app?
18:14:41 <terceiro> is there anything that we need to decide? I mean, if there is a patch to provide the schedule in whatever format is needed, then it happens. otherwise ...
18:14:53 <DLange> I mean that sounds most logical for a schedule of calendar entries essentially?!?
18:15:45 <Tobi_> ical is not supported at this point in time
18:16:08 <zleap> what does the thunderbird calender thing iport ?
18:16:11 <zleap> import
18:16:13 <DLange> ical :)
18:16:19 <zleap> ok
18:16:30 <tumbleweed> Tobi_: some of the features eventfahrplan has seem to require backend support (comments, etc.)
18:17:00 <tumbleweed> what would the plan be there? would we just go without those?
18:17:30 <Tobi_> true. rating/comments are submitted into the backend being used such as Frab or Pretalx
18:17:49 <Tobi_> no idea if your backend has such a feature (?)
18:17:52 <tumbleweed> nope
18:18:04 <tumbleweed> neither ratings nor comments
18:18:30 <Tobi_> the app works w/o the feature - no problem
18:19:02 <tumbleweed> OK
18:19:18 <tumbleweed> then, is it a single app? or do you build per-conference apps?
18:19:37 <Tobi_> per-conference
18:20:39 <tumbleweed> OK. If you're happy to do that for us, that's pretty nice, thanks
18:20:54 <tumbleweed> I don't think we'd customize much this year, just the schedule
18:21:04 <bittin-> just to figure out how to get the schedule from wafer to the app
18:21:08 <bittin-> i think its a good addition
18:21:14 <tumbleweed> but if it could link to live streams and matrix rooms, that'd neat
18:21:19 <tumbleweed> that'd *be* neat
18:22:02 <Tobi_> If links are added as part of the schedule as <links> then they are picked up by the app
18:22:48 <tumbleweed> OK
18:23:40 <bittin-> so maybe the rtmp streams can be linked?
18:24:04 <bittin-> so one can open them up with vlc on android for example?
18:24:30 <tumbleweed> bittin-: probably the HLS streams, RTMP can't automatically select quality, frontend, etc.
18:24:36 <bittin-> tumbleweed: ah
18:24:47 <bittin-> well video is not my best subject
18:25:08 <tumbleweed> Tobi_: I'll have a quick go at implementing a frab xml generator
18:25:20 <tumbleweed> I don't have any more questions
18:25:29 <nattie> so are we happy to go with it?
18:26:04 <nattie> Tobi_: is there anything you would concretely need from us?  just the schedule itself?  volunteers to help out?
18:26:09 <Tobi_> Do you want me to set up the app or is there anyone in your team who wants to do it?
18:26:14 <DLange> wouldn't it make more sense to adapt the app to consume ical?
18:26:31 <gregoa> I guess the current XML might even work as it's not too far from frab; at last giggity and confclerk understand both. which also means that bringing wafer's xml expoert closer to frab shouldn't be a problem in case that's needed. (and having a define schema would be good in general.)
18:26:32 <DLange> As a general improvement that makes it more useful for other events?
18:26:40 <Tobi_> Sounds like a feature request ^^
18:26:56 <DLange> still what gregoa says is true, too
18:27:00 <DLange> seems like a small delta
18:28:39 <Tobi_> EventFahrplan needs the Frab-compatible format - I know from painful error analysis sessions.
18:29:45 <Tobi_> from you I would need a few assets such as SVG logo and such - I can send details later if you like
18:30:19 <terceiro> create an issue under https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/websites/dc21/
18:31:04 <Tobi_> Open question: Is there any sponsor or budget to support the project - me working on EventFahrplan in my freetime - helping to sustain it?
18:31:48 <DLange> not really, all the wafer development is spare time of our devs, too
18:31:53 <Tobi_> terceiro: me?
18:32:48 <terceiro> Tobi_: yes, that's the place to send details later to
18:33:04 <terceiro> so it doesn't get lost in peoples mailboxes
18:33:30 <Tobi_> Would you do all the advertisement on social media channels? People do no find/install the app if it is not well promoted.
18:33:56 <DLange> DC21 logo is here https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/websites/dc21/-/blob/master/assets/img/dc21-logo.svg
18:34:00 <nattie> i think we could certainly mention it!
18:34:02 <bittin-> or put up a link to it on the schedule page/website maybe ?
18:34:25 <zleap> I am on Mastodon so could promote there (qoto) given the nature of blocking it could be a good way to ensure good reach to people
18:34:52 <DLange> 20:30 <terceiro> create an issue under https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/websites/dc21/
18:34:59 <DLange> sorry mispaste
18:35:03 <DLange> https://salsa.debian.org/debconf-team/public/websites/dc21/-/blob/master/pages/schedule/mobile.md
18:35:28 <DLange> was the intended paste ^, this page we could add EventFahrplan as well
18:35:39 <DLange> (once it works for DC21 Online)
18:37:00 <Tobi_> Mastadon, website, ... would be very important to my experience. Not sure which user check the repository.
18:37:05 <bittin-> sounds good to me
18:37:42 <DLange> Tobi_: that's a template for the page on the main website
18:37:53 <DLange> so that's where the info and links would end up
18:37:59 <zleap> well I am just on qoto.org (instance) which is STEM focussed so i can make posts without it being off topic(ish) for the instancer
18:38:02 <zleap> instance
18:38:17 <Tobi_> I there is no budget by the conference or sponsors - it would be fair if you could at least mention to users that they can support the development themselves. Ack?
18:39:00 <DLange> Tobi_: get something working first
18:39:23 <Tobi_> DLange: thanks for the clarification about the website
18:40:02 <terceiro> I don't want to be rude but we are on this for 30 minutes, can we move on?
18:40:13 <DLange> yes, sounds reasonable
18:40:15 <nattie> should we return to this topic at the next meeting?
18:40:19 <DLange> thanks for joining Tobi_!
18:40:23 <Tobi_> Will you ping me about the schedule format once it is ready?
18:40:29 <Tobi_> Thanks for your time!
18:40:38 <tumbleweed> Tobi_: yes
18:40:48 <nattie> who wants to take that action item?
18:41:11 <nattie> tumbleweed: can you?
18:41:21 <tumbleweed> yes
18:41:25 <nattie> #action tumbleweed to ping Tobias Preuss about the schedule format once it's ready
18:41:40 <nattie> shall we revisit this at the next meeting, just for an update?
18:42:00 <tumbleweed> update
18:42:05 <zleap> yeah
18:42:09 <nattie> ok
18:42:20 <nattie> #topic Budget
18:42:52 <nattie> my apologies, still working on figures for t-shirts and shipping
18:43:06 <nattie> for the moment, should we use last year's numbers?
18:43:16 <DLange> nah, we'd just need to send the budget for DPL approval
18:43:27 <DLange> and that needs current numbers not last year's :)
18:44:05 <nattie> i could try to project something based on the uptake for shirts we have at the moment
18:44:08 <tumbleweed> we're at 412 registrations with t-shirts
18:44:22 <DLange> cut off date for swag is ... when?
18:44:28 <nattie> 25th
18:44:34 <nattie> so just under 3 weeks from now
18:45:00 <DLange> so probably wait for this and have everything ready to send to the DPL a day or so later
18:45:01 <tumbleweed> this is about 2x last year?
18:45:10 <terceiro> can we make it the 25th or the N t-shirts, whatever happens first?
18:45:12 <tumbleweed> or we project and budget
18:46:09 <DLange> can we get logistics cost down over last year? That was at least the intention ... last year
18:46:32 <DLange> because the T-shirts are not the issue, the issue is UPSing them around the globe one at a time
18:46:35 <nattie> yes, i should think so - i've got more local distributors in place
18:46:41 <DLange> great!
18:47:18 <DLange> So do an estimate for 500 and then let's get DPL approval?
18:47:51 <nattie> sure.  that will take some time as it will involve a few people, but that's fine
18:47:52 <DLange> I mean if 5000 people register by the deadline we won't be sending free swag anyways, so we can as well set an upper bound for registrations.
18:48:27 <tumbleweed> DLange: +1
18:48:45 <terceiro> I think the system even supports that>
18:48:46 <bittin-> +1
18:48:51 <zleap> i guess this is where local lugs are useful as potentially you can send to 1 person to be given out to people
18:48:52 <nattie> sure
18:49:20 <bittin-> zleap: not sure if many LUGs hang out locally with covid however
18:49:20 <nattie> remember meeting people in person?  that used to be a thing!
18:49:34 <bittin-> nattie: yeah hopefully its a thing again in 2022
18:49:36 <zleap> most are on hold
18:49:49 <DLange> Kosovo is preparing already
18:49:50 <nattie> bittin-: at which point we won't need quite as much shipping for t-shirts
18:49:52 <zleap> but yeah when they do meet that could be a way round this
18:49:57 <bittin-> nattie: true
18:50:02 <zleap> what about stickers etc ?
18:50:25 <nattie> some swag will be available
18:50:27 <bittin-> not sure if Debconf have had stickers but i can be wrong?
18:50:50 <bittin-> https://www.freewear.org/Debian has some swag, but they don't ship again until September
18:50:51 <nattie> there have been promotional stickers for future debconfs in the past, but those were generally small-scale efforts
18:51:06 <bittin-> due to they only take care of online conference things atm
18:51:18 <bittin-> + to they*
18:51:29 <nattie> i think we can move on to the next item now
18:51:40 <nattie> #topic Update from Content
18:51:47 <nattie> terceiro: tell us things
18:51:59 <terceiro> ok
18:52:05 <bittin-> Was scheduling earlier today? or did i add that to my calendar wrong?
18:52:13 <terceiro> so we missed our original deadline for sending out acceptance notification
18:52:28 <nattie> bittin-: I have no idea what you mean by scheduling
18:52:32 <terceiro> we are almost done, and those should go out soon™
18:52:40 <bittin-> nattie: scheduling talks etc as the CFP Deadline was yesterday
18:53:05 <nattie> that would be the domain of the Content Team, anyway
18:53:16 <bittin-> ah
18:53:21 <terceiro> the list of accepted talks should be published soon™
18:53:29 <bittin-> ah
18:53:34 <terceiro> the schedule will probbaly take a couple of weeks
18:53:45 <terceiro> but things are progressing
18:53:49 <terceiro> that's the report
18:54:01 <nattie> #info The list of accepted talks should be published shortly; the schedule will probably appear in several weeks
18:54:10 <zleap> ok
18:54:11 <nattie> #topic Community team update
18:54:28 <nattie> Our Community Team representative had to head out, but has asked me to pass along the following:
18:55:08 <nattie> #link https://lists.debian.org/debconf-announce/2021/07/msg00000.html Call for participation in the Incident Response team
18:55:29 <Tobi_> Sorry to jump back. Is there a fixed date when the schedule will be online? Please mind that published the app takes a while too which I cannot influence.
18:55:51 <nattie> Tobi_: We'll address that during AOB
18:56:28 <nattie> There has been some response to the mail, and the Community Team will discuss how to proceed during their next meeting, on Thursday
18:56:45 <nattie> #info Community Team will discuss response to their call for involvement on Thursday
18:57:06 <nattie> Also, for the avoidance of doubt, Community Team will *not* be monitoring all channels at all times
18:57:31 <nattie> i think that brings us to the next item
18:57:35 <nattie> #topic scheduling the next meeting
18:57:39 <joeDoe> thereby reducing the budget for coffee
18:57:55 <nattie> Should we stay fortnightly for now?
18:58:03 <zleap> i would
18:58:08 <DLange> yeah, seems still reasonable
18:58:16 <nattie> i think once we're within a month of DebConf itself, we could move weekly
18:58:19 <zleap> even if there isn't much of an update
18:58:22 <DLange> may be we have a budget by then, nudge, nudge :)
18:58:22 <nattie> so end of this month/beginning of August
18:58:23 <joeDoe> least once more
18:58:34 <bittin-> (cant attend next time then as i will help out at GUDEC then) but should be able to join all dates after that
18:58:56 <bittin-> *(GUADEC)
18:59:09 <nattie> are people good with moving to weekly from the 2nd of August onwards?
18:59:15 <bittin-> yes
18:59:41 <terceiro> y
18:59:42 <DLange> sounds good, too
18:59:48 <nattie> 2 weeks from now puts us at the 19th of July
18:59:59 <nattie> #agreed next meeting 19 July, 18:00 UTC
19:00:05 <nattie> #topic AOB
19:00:12 <nattie> would anyone like to address Tobi_'s question?
19:01:05 <DLange> I think tumbleweed would be the one to know, because without a consumable xml, the schedule availability won't matter to EventFahrplan as is
19:01:09 <tumbleweed> so, we haven't published a date that the schedule will be published on
19:01:20 <tumbleweed> Tobi_: how much time do you think you need?
19:02:10 <terceiro> we can always publish a fake schedule on wafertest.debconf.org (e.g. copy the one from last year and s/2020/2021/
19:02:46 <Tobi_> copy from last year is totally fine.
19:02:54 <nattie> i guess it's less the content and more the format
19:03:02 <terceiro> or we can deploy the code change to https://mdco2.mini.debconf.org/
19:03:03 <Tobi_> worst case to expect is 3 weeks.
19:03:06 <bittin-> depends on how much it takes to update in production i guess?
19:03:41 <Tobi_> I will need the final URL before publishing the app.
19:03:59 <Tobi_> If you redirect on the server does not matter to me
19:04:40 <terceiro> or even better https://in2021.mini.debconf.org/schedule/ for a good unicode test :)
19:05:44 <Tobi_> Does the server support ETAG?
19:06:29 <terceiro> not atm
19:06:46 <Tobi_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_ETag
19:07:08 <Tobi_> would be nice so schedule updates work correctly
19:08:02 <seabass[m]> For icalendar schedules, the most recent update timestamp is in the file itself
19:08:15 <bittin-> seabass[m]: the app does not support iCal however
19:08:43 <tumbleweed> neither our ical nor xml exports have etag / last-modified dates
19:08:51 <bittin-> only .xml also we are over time
19:09:20 <Tobi_> we can discuss details 1:1 later somewhen
19:09:34 <tumbleweed> I don't think we have the necessary metadata to implement them, either
19:10:34 <Tobi_> metadata?
19:10:44 <nattie> this does seem like something for further discussion after the meeting
19:10:48 <nattie> do you mind awfully?
19:11:00 <Tobi_> not now
19:11:10 <tumbleweed> Tobi_: as in, the system doesn't know when the schedule was last changed
19:11:37 <Tobi_> I see. Let
19:11:53 <Tobi_> let's talk another day
19:12:04 <nattie> you can actually continue talking directly in a few minutes!
19:12:14 <nattie> i'd just like to conclude the formal part of the meeting
19:12:26 <DLange> please ;-)
19:12:33 <nattie> anything else before i close?
19:12:41 <zleap> i don't think so, thanks all
19:12:50 <bittin-> not from me, will be back in 4 weeks
19:12:50 <nattie> Thanks everyone for attending!
19:12:53 <zleap> np
19:13:00 <nattie> see several of you in a fortnight!
19:13:03 <nattie> #endmeeting