18:58:58 <marga> #startmeeting
18:58:58 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jun 17 18:58:58 2020 UTC.  The chair is marga. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:58:58 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:59:04 <marga> #topic Roll call
18:59:08 <spwhitton> Sean Whitton
18:59:12 <fil> Philip Hands
18:59:13 <marga> Margarita Manterola
18:59:16 <ntyni> Niko Tyni
18:59:53 <bremner> David Bremner
19:00:20 <ehashman> Elana Hashman
19:00:21 <smcv> Simon McVittie
19:01:11 <marga> Alright, let's move on, gwolf was around earlier but seems to be late today
19:01:24 <marga> #topic Review of previous meeting's AIs
19:01:33 <marga> http://meetbot.debian.net/debian-ctte/2020/debian-ctte.2020-05-20-18.59.html
19:01:45 <bremner> I did it!
19:01:52 <marga> We had two AIs. bremner successfully completed his! Yay! \o/
19:02:08 <marga> I failed at mine, once again. Booooh /o\
19:02:22 <bremner> to be fair, yours is hard
19:02:39 <marga> Yeah, and I also moved to a new place and whatever, excuses.
19:02:52 <bremner> blame covid
19:03:03 <marga> Anyway, let's move on to the happy topic
19:03:05 <marga> #topic Welcome to the new committee members
19:03:16 <marga> Welcome spwhitton and ehashman !!!!! \o/
19:03:20 <fil> \o/  Welcome :-)
19:03:20 <spwhitton> thanks!
19:03:25 <bremner> welcome.
19:03:34 <ntyni> yes, welcome!
19:03:35 <ehashman> thank you!!
19:03:38 <marga> I'm super happy to have both of you on board :)
19:04:21 <marga> I want to say, we're right now in a very weird state where we haven't had new bugs open for a while, there haven't been any flamy controversies... I fear there might be one coming up just around the corner, who knows.
19:04:54 <spwhitton> I was worried everyone being stuck at home might result in some unpleasantness on d-devel but that has not happened either
19:05:34 * ehashman knocks on wood
19:05:41 <fil> everyone too busy with trying to home-school or hoard yeast probably ;-)
19:06:13 <gwolf> opos, sorry!
19:06:19 <gwolf> I'm here
19:06:25 <gwolf> reading backlog
19:06:27 <marga> Yeah, that might be it. It's strange, but I guess people in IT actually have more work because of COVID (normal work done from home + homeschooling or similar additional responsibilities)
19:06:34 <fil> (or work out how the hell to feed themselves, when not allowed outside, etc.)
19:06:47 <gwolf> welcome spwhitton and ehashman  !!!
19:07:06 <marga> So, moving on to the next topic
19:07:20 <marga> #topic Voting for a new TC chair
19:07:30 <bremner> we need a bug for that right?
19:07:34 <marga> With the new membership, we should vote once again for a TC chair
19:07:37 <marga> Yes, we need a bug
19:07:47 <marga> Everyone is nominated
19:08:01 <marga> And everyone is free to order people in whatever order they'd like.
19:08:22 <bremner> people are also welcome to express (lack of) desire to do the job
19:08:34 <marga> Exactly, so, now's your opportunity to do so.
19:08:42 <ehashman> I do not want to be chair.
19:08:52 <spwhitton> bremner: can we express desire for someone else to do it?
19:09:07 <marga> I feel like I've done a pretty mediocre job myself, but I'm willing to continue if nobody else wants to do it.
19:09:41 <spwhitton> I mean, do we think of the chair's role as mostly administrative and mostly disregard the casting vote thing?
19:09:46 <bremner> I feel I could also do a mediocre job if marga needs a sanity break. But I'm _very_ happy to let someone else do it
19:09:58 <marga> Well, I did have to do a casting vote last year
19:10:08 <marga> So, you never know.
19:10:13 <ntyni> thanks marga for doing the job so far and for volunteering again :)
19:10:23 <spwhitton> ntyni: and
19:10:40 <spwhitton> sorry, new keyboard
19:10:56 <spwhitton> ntyni: given your recednt administrative activities do you have any interest?
19:11:25 <ntyni> not really thanks, I'm pretty sure marga or bremner would be better at it
19:12:07 <ntyni> it certainly wasn't a campaign :)
19:12:07 <bremner> marga: if you can agree to continue, I will try backstop on some of the boring TODO items
19:12:09 <smcv> given the number of meetings where I forgot it was on and failed to turn up, I think I unvolunteer
19:12:16 <fil> marga: I think you're being way too hard on yourself -- you did it much better than I would have (and not only because you remember when the meetings are :-) )
19:12:17 <gwolf> (sorry, RL hast got hold of me)
19:13:06 <gwolf> ehashman, spwhitton: If you look at history, our votes usually follow the pattern of voting newcomers at the bottom of the stack (as they do need _some_ experience)
19:13:16 <bremner> also kindness
19:13:28 <marga> bremner, sure, that sounds good. We still have to let everyone vote freely :)
19:13:36 <bremner> of course
19:13:43 <ehashman> gwolf: good, because I would have no idea what I am doing, hence my lack of interest :D
19:13:43 <gwolf> I often have to skip meetings or half-attend them due to the time we hold them... I'd also prefer not to be chaired
19:13:55 <gwolf> or even chair :)
19:14:03 <spwhitton> I mean it seems like a newcomer chair would not be very efficident as they would lack knoweldge
19:14:32 <marga> Well, I think we could also have a separate vote on times. Maybe let's add that as the next topic.\
19:14:42 <marga> For this topic, we need to create a bug and start a vote.
19:14:46 <spwhitton> marga: "on times"?
19:14:51 <gwolf> I don't feel marga has done a bad job -- She has an outstanding item to think and prepare for a long time, but I think that's orthogonal to being the chair. She's just trying to sketch something ... I would have no clue as where to begin with!
19:14:58 <bremner> I think I just volunteered to do the start the vote thing
19:15:04 <bremner> certainly qualifies as boring
19:15:05 <marga> spwhitton, this thing, 3rd Wed of the month at 19:00 UTC
19:15:17 <spwhitton> ah
19:15:23 <marga> bremner, awesome, you're amazing
19:15:34 <marga> #action bremner to start the vote for the new TC chair
19:15:46 <marga> #topic IRC Meeting scheduling
19:16:24 <gwolf> ok, that's an interesting point I didn't see coming!
19:16:30 <marga> So, we have new committee members, and as Gunnar has just mentioned, this time is quite inconvenient to him... Should we hold a vote for when the meeting should take place? If so, how?
19:16:42 <bremner> dudle poll?
19:16:47 <spwhitton> hmm, couldn't we come up with something without a vote?
19:17:02 <marga> spwhitton, heh, such radical ideas you bring to the table!
19:17:09 <gwolf> Well, for me this time is mildly annoying... So I'm happy to reschedule! I never brought it up because I can often somewhat accomodate
19:17:09 <spwhitton> gwolf: is it the day of the week or the time that's most inconvenient?
19:17:11 <marga> Sure, we can come up with something without a vote :)
19:17:15 <gwolf> spwhitton: It's the time of day
19:17:24 <gwolf> I'd be happier if it were ~2h earlier
19:17:33 <gwolf> but I'm only me
19:17:39 <spwhitton> I guess the question is whether those in europe can deal with that.
19:17:48 <marga> 2 hours earlier would work for me.
19:18:22 <spwhitton> for those of us west of europe, I would assume that if the current time is fine then two hours earlier would be too.
19:18:23 <bremner> fine for me, but not on wednesdays
19:18:44 <ehashman> to confirm, gwolf you are proposing 1700 UTC?
19:19:02 <gwolf> yes
19:19:04 <smcv> 2h earlier would be ok for me. I'll still be at work, so if there's a work emergency I'll have to drop out, but tbh the same is true for this time
19:19:08 <gwolf> but bremner prefers not wednesdays
19:19:18 <spwhitton> bremner: can you suggest a day?
19:19:33 <spwhitton> seems best to avoid friday/sat
19:19:53 <gwolf> Yes, I very much prefer a workday
19:20:06 <marga> Thursdays would work for me.
19:20:15 <bremner> monday, tuesday or friday are OK. thursday is OK-ish, but I have another meeting ending at 1700UTC
19:20:15 <gwolf> During non-work-hours it's harder for me to reserve time in front of the computer
19:20:16 <ehashman> 1800-2000 would be ideal for me, because that's when I usually take lunch. I can't guarantee work isn't going to schedule a meeting on me outside of that in business hours. Wed and Friday are good days because they are usually much lighter on meetings for me :)
19:20:59 <gwolf> 18:00 would work quite well for me for ~7 months (but not for ~5 months, as it's the time I leave to pick up kids in non-daylight-savings)
19:21:06 <bremner> My schedule will change drastically in September.
19:21:53 <gwolf> So, do you want me to set up a dudle, covering 17:00-21:00 M-F or something like that?
19:22:00 <bremner> sure
19:22:10 <gwolf> can I #action myself?
19:22:16 <marga> I'll action you
19:22:19 <gwolf> thx
19:23:03 <marga> #action gwolf to create a dudle for the time of the meeting Monday to Fridays, between 17:00 and 20:00
19:23:17 <marga> (21:00 UTC is very late over here)
19:23:25 <gwolf> OK!
19:23:27 <marga> Alright. Moving on
19:23:39 <marga> #topic DebConf20 Virtual Presentation
19:24:03 <bremner> I did something that hopefully gwolf will fix?
19:24:05 <spwhitton> I guess we have to determine the timezone we'll request.
19:24:14 <marga> So, Sean brought this up in the mailing list. DC20 will be virtual only. We usually have a "Meet the TC" session at DebConf and we might want to start thinking what we want this session to be like this year.
19:24:23 <fil> yeah 21:00 UTC is past my bed time really
19:24:26 <gwolf> spwhitton: UTC, up to us to figure out timezones
19:24:41 <spwhitton> right I guess I mean, which slice of the day :)
19:25:08 <marga> Yeah. I haven't yet submitted a talk for DC20, but I understood from the latest email that speakers were allowed to express preferences in that regard
19:26:07 <gwolf> For DC20 - I'm content team. Please tell me once you have registered, I'll add you to the talk proposal
19:26:10 <spwhitton> I guess we can't control the day so we should just figure out the times
19:26:34 <ehashman> I'm not actually sure where all the other TC members are located. I'm currently on PDT, meaning I can schedule things between 1500-0400 UTC
19:26:46 <gwolf> IIRC so far I've added myself, spwhitton and ehashman
19:26:53 <ehashman> oh, thanks gwolf
19:27:11 <marga> ehashman, I think you're the westernmost. A bunch of us are in Central European time.
19:27:16 <ehashman> do we also want to do a doodle for DebConf availability?
19:27:25 <spwhitton> gwolf: what form do the time requests take?
19:27:28 <gwolf> And for scheduling the talk... well, I'll be as flexible as possible regarding times. As long as I'm not teaching at that time, I'm happy to use odd hours
19:27:39 <ehashman> marga: ah neat, a bunch of my coworkers are also on CET so I have it on my calendar :)
19:27:41 <spwhitton> how much of a range can we request
19:27:48 <ntyni> guess I'm the farthest east at UTC+2
19:27:56 <gwolf> spwhitton:I don't really know :-] I guess we can set a preference, and we(content) will try to honor it
19:28:00 <spwhitton> hmm okay this might not be that hard then
19:28:03 <gwolf> but haven't looked into it
19:28:28 <marga> Ok, then I think saying something like between 16:00 and 19:00 UTC would work?
19:28:47 <spwhitton> I guess we can just ask for a time which is during the day for both PDT and UTC+2
19:29:14 <ehashman> works for me (PDT = UTC-7)
19:29:23 <spwhitton> I am UTC-7 too for now
19:29:44 <gwolf> Right, so 16-19:00 is OK for everybody?
19:29:50 <gwolf> I'll add the note right away
19:29:51 <bremner> sure
19:29:53 <ehashman> gwolf: +1
19:29:58 <spwhitton> great
19:30:01 <ntyni> wfm
19:30:14 <smcv> gwolf: fine for me
19:30:33 <gwolf> done
19:30:55 <fil> yup
19:30:56 <marga> gwolf, my username is marga... I guess there's no registration this year, so I'm already in?
19:31:13 <ehashman> I think you might have to log in with SSO first
19:31:24 <marga> Yeah, I just did that.
19:31:48 <gwolf> you still have to register
19:31:53 <gwolf> it's a different instance
19:31:54 <marga> For previous DCs, one had to go through a long form with lots of data, but this time I think just logging in is enough? There's no registration form?
19:31:55 <gwolf> OK!
19:32:10 <gwolf> marga: Confirmed, I added you
19:32:15 <smcv> I've logged in (as smcv), let me know if I need to do anything else
19:32:20 <marga> Cool
19:32:37 <marga> Thanks! Now I have no excuse for submitting my other talk proposal :)
19:32:39 <gwolf> smcv: Added.
19:32:49 <gwolf> Still missing: ntyni and philh.
19:32:51 <smcv> breaking my pattern of one debconf per decade :-)
19:32:56 <gwolf> heh!
19:33:08 <gwolf> The decade is quite young and decadent.
19:33:29 <ntyni> yeah will get to it in a bit
19:33:48 <gwolf> I have to leave you... Family waits for me for lunch!
19:34:09 <marga> Bye Gunnar!
19:34:10 <bremner> bye. Let's volunteer gwolf for lots of things
19:34:11 <gwolf> We are still missing the abstract and... well, have to think *what* to say in the talk
19:34:20 <gwolf> yup. Volunteer me up!
19:34:23 <gwolf> kthxbye!
19:34:31 <marga> Yeah, so that was my point for this topic: what do we want this presentation to be like?
19:35:29 <bremner> I guess Q&A is the lazy answer
19:36:01 <bremner> maybe we could say here are three things the CTTE could do, which if any make sense?
19:36:39 <marga> what do you mean?
19:36:42 <ehashman> we could collect some canned questions and then take more live ones during the event?
19:36:49 * fil realises he's forgotten how the 2FA stuff works ...
19:36:55 <bremner> marga: see your non-boring action item :)
19:38:09 <marga> bremner, uhm, ok, but I guess the non-existant document should exist by then
19:38:17 <marga> And I like the idea of collecting questions in advance
19:38:30 <marga> So that we can think about the answers a bit
19:38:56 <bremner> also draws from a wider audience
19:39:38 <smcv> I agree that sounds good
19:39:57 <marga> Alright
19:40:39 <marga> #info Ideas for the talk: 1) present a proposal for the future of the TC and ask for input.  2) let people ask questions in advance so that they get answered during the talk (and also allow live questions)
19:41:02 <marga> And I guess I'll action me on the doc that I should have written 3 months ago
19:41:17 <marga> #action Marga still needs to work on the proposal for the future of the TC
19:41:47 <bremner> probably too early to ask for questions?
19:42:05 <marga> Yeah... How much in advance should we do it? 2 weeks, maybe?
19:42:18 <bremner> 1 month and then 2 weeks?
19:43:51 <marga> Uhm, ok, yeah. Makes sense
19:44:06 <spwhitton> maybe we should assign someone to do that
19:44:17 <marga> #info Idea is to send whatever we send in advance roughly 1 month before the talk and then a reminder 2 weeks later.
19:44:40 <marga> spwhitton, are you volunteering? ;)
19:44:58 <spwhitton> sure, I can
19:45:08 <fil> spwhitton: are you volunteering gwolf? ;-)
19:45:23 <spwhitton> also a good idea
19:46:09 <marga> heh
19:46:22 <marga> spwhitton, I'm not sure what you're volunteering for, really.
19:46:32 <marga> Starting the draft of whatever mail we will send?
19:47:15 <spwhitton> oh, right, we will need to say what sort of questions we want
19:48:13 <marga> So, I'll action you to start working on this, but we actually have until next meeting to publish it.
19:48:16 <marga> ok?
19:48:34 <spwhitton> okay, though I think you'll need to have significant input as the one working on reform plans
19:48:57 <marga> Yeah, we can work together :)
19:49:21 <spwhitton> sounds good, go ahead and action me
19:49:33 <marga> #action spwhitton to start a draft of whatever announcement we'll send. The message itself will be sent after next month's meeting (July 15th)
19:49:43 <marga> #topic Any other business
19:50:00 <marga> So, I just had a radical crazy idea... Now that jitsi actually works and is usable, should we consider holding these meetings via VC instead of IRC?
19:50:17 <bremner> I had a chat with someone who wanted advice from the TC: https://paste.debian.net/1152517/
19:50:22 <spwhitton> it would mean someone would have to take more traditional minutes
19:50:50 <spwhitton> and it would mean people couldn't do it so easily at their work desks/similar
19:50:52 <ehashman> marga: I'd actually prefer to use IRC. I use jitsi e.g. for OSI board meetings and it can be pretty unreliable, especially for large groups. one person's audio drops and then no one can hear them
19:51:42 <fil> I suspect that for those that dip in and out it would result in them not being able to attend at all (or for the times when people have said things like "I'm on the train")
19:51:52 <bremner> I'm fine with either option.
19:52:12 <bremner> we could have an IRC side channel for #actions and #infos.
19:52:20 <bremner> but yeah, there is a loss of detail.
19:52:51 <spwhitton> bremner: side channel is a cool idea
19:53:05 <fil> I personally dislike IRC because my reading/typing speed is dire, but it's still probably better than the alternatives
19:53:06 <marga> It's ok, I know that IRC has a lot of advantages. I once chaired a whole meeting from a team-dinner at a restaurant. Wouldn't have been able to do it via VC :)
19:53:28 <marga> bremner, regarding your chat, I second what you replied to this person.
19:53:54 <bremner> ok, I just wanted to mention it in case other people felt differently and wanted to get involved with that bug
19:53:57 <smcv> I think I prefer IRC as primary, particularly if the meeting continues to be at my dinner time
19:54:30 <ntyni> I prefer IRC too but happy to try VC too
19:55:12 <smcv> I think furrymcgee is misunderstanding the moreinfo tag - moreinfo means "more information needed from bug submitter to be able to work on this"
19:55:25 <smcv> they seem to be thinking it's more like the help tag
19:55:47 <bremner> even so.
19:56:02 <spwhitton> I think bremner's reply on IRC makes sense too.
19:56:13 <smcv> agreed
19:56:53 <ntyni> I think Guillem was waiting for the promised MinGW-w64 upstream input at that point
19:57:26 <ntyni> that point == the moreinfo tag
19:57:32 <marga> Well, that was 4 years ago
19:57:38 <ntyni> sure
19:57:51 <smcv> guillem's concerns about mingw gnu tuples seem entirely reasonable, tbh
19:58:30 <marga> But apart from that, I don't think this is something that the TC should get involved with
19:58:58 <ehashman> echoing bremner's comment of "229 message bug log", that's a lot of context to catch up on @_@
19:59:07 <fil> yeah, doesn't seem likely to be a worthwhile way to spend time
19:59:42 <marga> Alright, we're out of time and it seems like we agree that meetings should stay on IRC and that bremner replied the right thing, so we can close here :)
19:59:44 <bremner> if (who is involved with debian enough) cares, they can file a new bug and summarize the issies
20:00:09 <marga> Thanks everyone for attending!
20:00:13 <marga> #endmeeting