21:02:24 <flexlibris> #startmeeting Global South funding ideas
21:02:24 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Nov 20 21:02:24 2017 UTC.  The chair is flexlibris. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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21:02:27 <anadahz> hello
21:02:31 <flexlibris> Here is an agenda pad: https://pad.riseup.net/p/GS-funding
21:02:36 <flexlibris> I wrote some things on it, please add
21:03:28 <isabela> (drebs is in the forrest so no stable connection)
21:03:36 <anadahz> who's around?
21:03:52 * flexlibris is, but you knew that
21:04:23 <flexlibris> I called this meeting because I'd like us to collectively brainstorm what Global South related funding is needed
21:04:23 * isabela is
21:04:30 * sukhe is
21:04:36 <flexlibris> what we would be able to do in an ideal world where we got lots of money from rich benefactors
21:05:49 <anadahz> Alright
21:06:00 * armadev listens in
21:06:39 <anadahz> I much text flowing in the agenda do people prefer first to talk about it here first and add maybe a short agenda topic point?
21:07:04 <anadahz> *see
21:07:06 <isabela> flexlibris: in this doc you are not counting positions we will have to hire with upcoming grants we already applied for right?
21:07:19 <flexlibris> isabela: I'm not, but that's a good idea. we should add those in here :)
21:07:33 <isabela> ok
21:08:05 <flexlibris> isabela: I don't know what those are though besides the SIDA outreach position
21:08:35 <anadahz> #topic What projects or ideas need funding?
21:09:21 <anadahz> (I just selected one of the main topics from the agenda)
21:09:28 <flexlibris> thanks anadahz
21:09:56 <isabela> flexlibris: yeah i am thinking of the ones we had on that table related to sida, we had 2 (besides yours) let me look
21:10:02 <flexlibris> the first item in there is regarding the meetups that have been happening
21:10:23 <flexlibris> I like the idea of having a fixed amount and then asking a funder to fund a certain number of meetups
21:10:29 <flexlibris> let's think about what the costs related to the meetups are
21:11:01 <willscott> 1k is a lot of money for a meetup in some places. would that mean they have a higher bar and need to attract a lot of people?
21:11:18 <isabela> that was just an example
21:11:19 <sukhe> so I think this question also depends on if we organize a meetup or we partner with an another organization on the ground (cheaper, more awareness but on the downside doesn't always work out)
21:11:39 <anadahz> Usually flight tickets are the main issue
21:11:45 <flexlibris> it's usually just easier to ask a funder for a fixed amount is the thing
21:11:53 <isabela> just to have a formula to use to estimate how much to ask for a certain number of meetups
21:11:55 <sukhe> because if we do partner, most of the times the organizations have their own space which we can issue (<-- in my experience; may be wrong)
21:12:48 <isabela> sukhe: that will vary
21:12:52 <flexlibris> in a grant proposal, we'd write something about how this is the estimated average cost, but we anticipate some fluctuation
21:13:12 <sukhe> ok yeah
21:13:14 <anadahz> we need to consider that are different capacities of Tor meetups, like a local event or a regional/national event
21:13:29 <isabela> yep
21:13:29 <willscott> maybe another question is what we imagine that paying for?
21:14:04 <flexlibris> it seems like travel costs are the main need
21:14:06 <isabela> willscott: can go from handout materials, food for a all day training, transportation (sometimes paying for a public transportation helps get ppl there)
21:14:11 <willscott> when i would organize hackathons in seattle, we would get space for free from the city, and our cost for a weekend of food for 100 people was ~$1k
21:14:14 * t0mmy is here, sorry I'm late
21:14:15 <isabela> whatever it needs
21:14:30 <willscott> getting tor people to the meetups?
21:14:32 <isabela> i think we cant assume the scenarios
21:14:38 <sukhe> willscott: getting space from the city is difficult in say a place like India. but I see your point
21:14:38 <isabela> we should be flexible
21:14:41 <willscott> no, absolutely not :)
21:14:41 <flexlibris> maybe what we would want to do in a proposal is breakdown some goals for different kinds of meetups
21:14:43 <sukhe> yeah we
21:14:49 <anadahz> flight tickets, accomodation
21:15:34 <isabela> i did a training here in nyc where the organization payed for the public transportation to get the immigrant workers there in the weekend
21:15:39 <isabela> cuz folks just dont have the money
21:15:53 <flexlibris> we could say for example to a funder that we aim to do 5 national level meetups and 40 local meetups (just by way of example)
21:16:05 <flexlibris> and then we could give an estimated breakdown of the costs associated with each
21:16:06 <anadahz> I guess we need also to understand the cultural differences of each region
21:16:20 <isabela> flexlibris: i would try not to breakdown
21:16:41 <flexlibris> isabela: too restrictive?
21:16:58 <flexlibris> what I was thinking was like "here is an example of what has been needed at past meetups"
21:16:59 <isabela> flexlibris: i think if we could have a language where is a set limit that we could give as 'support for the local organizations' specially for local meetups the better
21:17:08 <isabela> this way is much easier on reports and burocracy
21:17:12 <flexlibris> ah okay got it
21:17:50 <isabela> we can talk about ways we expect people to use it and do some reporting that is less tight up
21:18:14 <flexlibris> isabela: yeah to be clear that's what I was thinking...some examples of how it could be used without any specific promises that it will be exactly that way
21:18:34 <isabela> should i list the countries where folks are doing tests for us in the active list? I hope they become more and more active :D
21:18:37 <flexlibris> so given all the variables, I think coming up with an ideal number would be hard, but $1000 per meetup sounds like it might serve most cases well
21:18:38 <willscott> there's also the model google had for a number of years where it would mail pre-paid debit cards to people to hold pizza meetups at their campuses, which seemed to give them a relatively large amount of outreach for their money
21:18:42 <isabela> flexlibris: cool
21:18:43 <flexlibris> isabela: yes!
21:19:13 <willscott> agree that all of these tactics / different models can be hidden from potential funders, though
21:19:36 <flexlibris> willscott: sure, it's just sometimes helpful to say "this is one way this might look"
21:19:46 <willscott> totally :)
21:21:45 <flexlibris> anything else that fits under the "things we are currently doing that need more funding"
21:21:48 <flexlibris> ?
21:22:12 <willscott> do we need more budget to get current tor community members to tor dev meetings?
21:22:17 <flexlibris> I see meetups and "general outreach" as very similar...could both be served by having a fixed cost per event
21:22:20 <flexlibris> willscott: yes
21:22:26 <isabela> flexlibris: trainings fits where? GS meetup or GS outreach?
21:22:40 <isabela> meetup right?
21:23:07 <flexlibris> isabela: they could be either I think
21:23:17 <flexlibris> I think the associated costs for trainings and meetups are similar
21:23:29 <flexlibris> travel, food, event space, accommodations, materials, etc
21:23:56 <isabela> ok
21:24:31 <flexlibris> isabela: do you think a funder would need us to break down the difference between a meetup and a training?
21:25:03 <isabela> it depends
21:25:29 <anadahz> Monitoring events were Tor people should be attending
21:25:30 <isabela> i think we should not worry about it now, i think we can easily reorganize the pad to be like
21:25:41 <isabela> outreach, meetups and trainings:
21:25:44 <ggus> 50 training looks ok. 50 meetups maybe look too much meetings for a funder.
21:25:45 <isabela> then the bullet points
21:25:56 <anadahz> and at least give a talk/prepare a session/workshop
21:26:09 <isabela> so is like it can be either thing
21:26:16 <sukhe> I think 50 looks too much
21:26:21 <isabela> but what will be more interesting for a funder is like
21:28:12 <isabela> some classification of which 'stage of community growth' each region/country we are targeting at the proposal are. So we can show them we have some 'community bootstrap' model. so based on this model, country x is in early stage and needs a, b and c
21:28:23 <isabela> i think telling stories like that might be more interesting
21:28:32 <flexlibris> yes
21:29:58 <sukhe> on the note of stories: https://medium.com/@Asher_Wolf/coconet-s-e-asia-digital-rights-camp-d8134dee7782 (by Asher Wolf; Interviews With Nine Digital Rights Activists
21:30:01 <sukhe> )
21:30:08 <sukhe> stories like these are powerful
21:31:12 <flexlibris> yes, and once we get into the actual proposal writing we can reach out to some people who are already doing this work and ask for their stories
21:31:17 <sukhe> yeah
21:31:47 <flexlibris> the hardware funding item -- is that about relays?
21:32:18 <anadahz> mostly for relays
21:32:20 <sukhe> also I am curious what type of orgs donate hardware. the person who wrote this, please add :)
21:32:49 * isabela has received hardware from wikipedia once
21:32:51 <ggus> sukhe: many enterprises donate "old" servers
21:32:59 <isabela> yep
21:33:01 <isabela> banks
21:33:05 <sukhe> ah nice
21:33:06 <flexlibris> I'd like to move on to the next topic, but please keep adding items to "what we are currently doing"
21:33:26 * isabela goes back to get those positions
21:33:41 <flexlibris> #topic What would we be doing if only we had funding?
21:34:13 <anadahz> sukhe: There are usually people/ORGs that have spare hardware to give out.
21:34:15 <flexlibris> this list of countries is great -- we can pull stories from existing work for funders, and tell stories about why it's needed in the other places
21:34:27 <anadahz> ex. Greenhost
21:34:34 <flexlibris> some of that maybe with OONI data, some directly from people we know in those countries
21:34:45 <sukhe> anadahz: thanks. didn't know!
21:35:22 * ilv is late - reading backlog
21:35:35 <flexlibris> ilv: there is also this pad https://pad.riseup.net/p/GS-funding
21:35:40 <sukhe> hola ilv
21:36:05 <flexlibris> the main thing for me under "things we'd do if we had the funding" is pay people for their time
21:36:17 <isabela> yeah
21:36:31 <anadahz> I guess people are motivated enough to do things without getting paid
21:37:08 <flexlibris> anadahz: sure, and that is very helpful, but we all live under capitalism and need money to live :)
21:37:31 <flexlibris> what if we had a funded position for LatAm Tor outreach, for example?
21:37:44 <flexlibris> and that person would travel to do trainings, run meetups, etc
21:38:13 <anadahz> not sure if this would really work in LATAM specifically
21:38:27 <flexlibris> why not?
21:38:39 <isabela> anadahz: ?
21:38:57 <anadahz> LATAM is a big area and people know a specific geographical place
21:39:08 <anadahz> to give an example
21:39:08 <isabela> ah
21:39:15 <isabela> that was just an example
21:39:27 <flexlibris> ah yeah that makes sense
21:39:29 <isabela> not necessary one person to all latam
21:39:34 <flexlibris> yes
21:39:37 <anadahz> every time I travel I literally bomb people to setup a Tor meetup
21:39:38 <isabela> and that person can help others in other areas to do stuff
21:39:46 <flexlibris> I'd like us to think about funding community liaison roles more broadly
21:39:49 <anadahz> and sometimes is very very hard
21:39:54 <isabela> anadahz: yes
21:40:03 <anadahz> and imagine that I know already a number of people here..
21:40:13 <isabela> yes
21:40:13 <sukhe> yeah I see what anadahz means...
21:40:17 <isabela> i know how that goes
21:40:22 <anadahz> isabela: can confirm how many times I asked her to give me contancts
21:40:25 <isabela> we are not thinking of it that literal
21:40:35 <ggus> i didn't get the point
21:41:04 <t0mmy> sorry, to clarify, we would or we wouldn't want to segment the community liaison roles by geography?
21:41:05 <anadahz> many times in various places there is no "community" or it's hard to get to this community without leaving there
21:42:01 <isabela> t0mmy: we will be flexible on what segmentations we do
21:42:15 <flexlibris> let me explain my goals a little more
21:42:16 <anadahz> ggus: does this makes more sense now?
21:42:27 <isabela> anadahz: but the point of the work is also to contact people who would be interest and getting it started
21:42:35 <flexlibris> yes to what isabela just said
21:42:44 <flexlibris> anadahz: I'm thinking a lot about the work you've been doing for example
21:42:45 <ggus> anadahz: +/-
21:42:45 <anadahz> sure but it's very very very hard
21:42:51 <flexlibris> traveling around, talking to people, building relationships
21:42:55 <isabela> anadahz: yes
21:42:57 <isabela> of course
21:43:03 <isabela> :(
21:43:05 <isabela> ops!
21:43:08 <isabela> :)
21:43:10 <isabela> meant smile!
21:43:11 <anadahz> so if this was a funded position I'm not sure of a good recipe to not fail
21:43:21 <flexlibris> this is all so important and I would like someone (maybe you! maybe multiple people!) to get paid for their time doing it
21:43:24 <anadahz> apart from a person running around local events
21:43:47 <flexlibris> it's great that people are generous and volunteer their time. but I think if we can pay people that is good.
21:43:54 <isabela> anadahz: i think what will help it not fail is to be flexible
21:43:59 <flexlibris> yeah
21:44:08 <isabela> anadahz: I did this many times too and that is fundamental
21:44:08 <anadahz> :)
21:44:15 <egypcio> anadahz: I'll be in Recife for a talk, btw. maybe you closer? this week though
21:44:18 <isabela> is like cooking
21:44:32 <isabela> you need to learn to use the ingridients you have to make a good food
21:44:36 <anadahz> egypcio: very far away
21:44:41 <isabela> not only one recipe
21:44:44 <anadahz> agreed!
21:45:19 <anadahz> but I guess it makes first more sense to support local groups in X countries
21:45:24 <flexlibris> anadahz: we don't have to fully form this idea yet. just brainstorming. the bigger thing to me is "how do we build and maintain relationships over time?"
21:45:40 <flexlibris> and yes, it seems like the biggest priority should be getting funding for existing local work
21:46:09 <ggus> anadahz: i don't think support local groups in x countries is the opposite to have someone for latam
21:46:35 <flexlibris> right, and all of these ideas don't necessarily have to be the same funding proposal
21:46:42 <anadahz> ah ok :)
21:46:59 <isabela> and might not even happen on a exactly order heheh cuz of #grantlife
21:47:03 <flexlibris> lol yeah
21:47:18 <anadahz> then if we had some amount of funding that can support people in LATAM then sure why not :P
21:47:29 <flexlibris> :)
21:47:32 <anadahz> but 1 person is not really enough
21:47:40 <anadahz> ..for a continent
21:47:42 <anadahz> :)
21:47:46 <isabela> hehehe
21:47:56 <isabela> the goal is to have 1k!
21:47:58 <egypcio> remote workers count
21:48:03 <anadahz> yey
21:48:07 <egypcio> no? (:
21:48:18 <flexlibris> yes the goal is 1k! but 1k has to start with....1
21:48:28 <isabela> hehehe
21:48:29 <anadahz> of course they count
21:48:31 <Samdney> :)
21:48:58 <flexlibris> which is also why I wrote that idea as support/facilitator. it's not the only person.
21:49:14 <anadahz> makes sense
21:49:15 <flexlibris> it's just a person whose job it is to make sure that the work continues, the people get what they need, etc
21:49:33 <anadahz> ok i see your point now
21:49:37 <flexlibris> cool :)
21:49:44 * isabela has another meeting in 10 min
21:49:49 <flexlibris> (which reminds me -- thank you all for having this meeting in English)
21:49:49 <egypcio> isabela: do you think that the letter/email I am planning to write can also be combined with some kindly questions about support for the project?
21:49:59 <flexlibris> yes, we should wrap up in 10 min for the sake of everyone's time
21:50:07 <flexlibris> let's look at what else is in the pad
21:50:16 <flexlibris> and see what people want to discuss with the remaining time
21:50:25 <isabela> egypcio: hmm not sure
21:50:28 <egypcio> ok
21:50:28 <flexlibris> as for funders to approach, I think t0mmy has done some preliminary research there
21:50:28 <isabela> egypcio: maybe not
21:50:40 <isabela> egypcio: maybe can be a follow up for those that replies positively
21:50:41 <isabela> hehe
21:50:46 <egypcio> but the initial idea atays. right?
21:50:51 <t0mmy> flexlibris yep yep
21:50:52 <isabela> yes
21:50:55 <egypcio> \o/
21:51:18 <anadahz> Maybe: #topic What funding exists now?
21:51:18 <sukhe> will there be one funding proposal for the GS outreach, or just one? (not that it matters but I am curious if we have to tailor proposals)
21:51:39 <isabela> sukhe: we might use the new model  here
21:51:40 <flexlibris> sukhe: I think it can/should be more than one
21:51:46 <sukhe> sorry (one or multiple)
21:51:47 <flexlibris> I mean t0mmy can say what he thinks too :)
21:51:49 <isabela> where is not by deliverable
21:52:07 <flexlibris> my feeling is that we might have more luck with several smaller funders than one big one that will take 3 fucking years to hear from
21:52:12 <sukhe> yeah
21:52:13 <flexlibris> not that I'm talking about anyone in particular there
21:52:15 <isabela> yes
21:52:18 <isabela> that is the new model
21:52:28 <t0mmy> I think it'll def. have to me multiple proposals.
21:52:34 <t0mmy> to be, even.
21:52:56 <egypcio> flexlibris: the ideia here (that I shared with isa before) is to get a Portuguese version of the "GoodBadISPs (available on trac/wiki), so I would write an email in order to contact some ISP in Brazil and aske if they are OK with running Tor on their Nets, or not
21:53:03 <flexlibris> as for the current funding, there is SIDA, which funds a couple of outreach positions
21:53:04 <t0mmy> there are a bunch of region-specific foundations ("I want to give money to people in Argentina!") that might be good fits for us.
21:53:16 <sukhe> that makes sense
21:53:22 <isabela> egypcio: you mean a PT vesion for BR ISPs
21:53:49 <flexlibris> and the other existing funding is basically "Alison asks Shari if we can have this little bit of money for this particular outreach thing that is happening" which is not a sustainable model :)
21:53:55 <isabela> t0mmy: we should take this to that 2018 fund meeting
21:54:01 <egypcio> isabela: yup!
21:54:06 <ggus> hahaha!
21:54:08 <t0mmy> isabela +1
21:54:10 <flexlibris> egypcio: that sounds good!
21:54:19 <flexlibris> isabela, t0mmy: when is that meeting?
21:54:36 <flexlibris> hey, we have five minutes left. anything else to discuss here?
21:54:37 <isabela> flexlibris: in seattle
21:54:43 <flexlibris> oooh when
21:54:47 <t0mmy> 12/7
21:55:06 <flexlibris> as for next steps, t0mmy I'm ready to help you write up some of this into a narrative whenever you want
21:55:16 <ilv> i added running VPS in places with few relays i.e. global south
21:55:19 <flexlibris> actually let's ask you t0mmy if there's anything else you need to get a proposal started
21:55:33 <ilv> vps for tor relays, of course
21:55:34 <egypcio> ilv: did you get the updates I wrote about it?
21:55:42 <ilv> i did not
21:55:45 <ggus> ilv: good bad isps?
21:55:49 <egypcio> for netbsd, openbsd, freebsd and dragonfrlybsd
21:55:53 <isabela> i guess what will be helpful is info on the state of each country
21:56:00 <isabela> like maybe a template of questions
21:56:07 <isabela> where ppl answer the same questions
21:56:24 <flexlibris> good idea
21:56:27 <isabela> like Brazuka land will burn in 2018 cuz of coup and elections
21:56:28 <isabela> hehe
21:56:35 <t0mmy> yes, that's exactly what I was typing
21:56:44 <ilv> in deed - in addition to ISPs we can add hosting companies like Digital ocean but in more interesting places
21:56:50 <isabela> should we try to list some questions?
21:56:50 <t0mmy> someone mentioned talking about what was working in existing countries -- those details are meaty
21:57:15 <isabela> ok people !
21:57:29 <isabela> i must shift my brain to this other meeting topic
21:57:34 <isabela> o/
21:57:37 * isabela out
21:57:39 <ilv> \o
21:57:40 <flexlibris> thanks isa!
21:57:50 <t0mmy> once I have those, I can start in on the meat of the "why is the work in this proposal important"
21:57:51 <anadahz> t0mmy: yes I can provide more details!
21:57:52 <t0mmy> thx, isa!
21:58:06 <t0mmy> anadahz cool, we should set up a time to talk
21:58:07 <flexlibris> t0mmy: we can ask on the global south list about that too
21:58:11 <egypcio> ilv: https://github.com/torbsd/torbsd.github.io/tree/egypcio/docs/pt
21:58:24 <t0mmy> flexlibris cool, want me to draft a message?
21:58:30 <flexlibris> t0mmy: perfect
21:58:33 <t0mmy> wilco
21:58:39 <flexlibris> and I will follow up with you about working on a narrative
21:58:45 <flexlibris> okay folks this is great
21:58:46 <t0mmy> great
21:58:49 <flexlibris> lots of good info to work with here
21:58:49 <t0mmy> thanks, all
21:58:53 <flexlibris> let's get some moneyyyyyy
21:58:57 <stephw> cool this can all help inform some blog posts too
21:59:04 <sukhe> thanks, all!
21:59:06 <flexlibris> stephw: definitely, esp the stories
21:59:12 <stephw> yes!
21:59:32 <ilv> egypcio: oh yes, i misunderstand you - i saw it
21:59:33 <flexlibris> after t0mmy and I talk about narrative stuff we will follow up on the global-south list about the next steps
21:59:45 <flexlibris> okay anything else really quick?
21:59:49 <flexlibris> otherwise I will end the meeting
22:00:16 <t0mmy> nada from me, I have next steps
22:00:48 <flexlibris> okay then
22:00:50 <flexlibris> #endmeeting