19:00:26 <GeKo> #startmeeting tor browser
19:00:26 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Dec 18 19:00:26 2017 UTC.  The chair is GeKo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:26 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:28 <isabela> mondays == never ending meetings day
19:00:32 <GeKo> hi all!
19:00:38 <sysrqb> )
19:00:44 <sysrqb> :)
19:00:46 <boklm> hi!
19:00:50 <pospeselr> feeling any better isa?
19:00:52 <pospeselr> hi!
19:00:53 <Riastradh> Hi!
19:00:57 <GeKo> so, this is week two using our new meeting schedule
19:00:57 <mcs> hi
19:00:58 <isabela> pospeselr: yes!
19:01:15 <igt0> hello!
19:01:22 <GeKo> i'd propose addint a new week at the top of the pad that avoids a bunch of scrolling :)
19:01:27 <GeKo> *adding
19:01:42 <isabela> (where is the pad?)
19:01:51 <boklm> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/tHoN4Ii7rLSjPE0OP4gydX4cMGadsXmRQNc-6lwru0N
19:01:52 <GeKo> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/tHoN4Ii7rLSjPE0OP4gydX4cMGadsXmRQNc-6lwru0N
19:01:57 <isabela> tx
19:02:02 <sysrqb> GeKo: good idea, sorry about putting at the bottom
19:02:12 <GeKo> anyway, let's have a look at the pad for items we want to discuss
19:02:49 * mcs is reading
19:03:38 <arthuredelstein> hi everyone! :)
19:04:11 <GeKo> igt0: i get a 404 for your paste link?
19:05:09 <boklm> the ')' needs to be removed from the link I think
19:05:33 <igt0> GeKo, oh! okey, i updated the link
19:06:06 <GeKo> thanks
19:08:53 <GeKo> alright, do we need more time to read?
19:09:31 <mcs> Kathy and I are done reading.
19:09:37 <GeKo> i guess we can start from top to down
19:09:53 <GeKo> so, it seems the next ESR will be 60 instead of 59
19:10:12 <GeKo> i am thinking about redoing that part of our roadmap
19:10:29 <GeKo> (or maybe we should not?)
19:10:39 <GeKo> and thought about getting feedback from the whole group
19:10:50 <mcs> I think we should leave some extra time if we have it (many unknowns, as usual).
19:11:11 <GeKo> what do you mean wit "extra time"?
19:11:21 <GeKo> for the transition to the new ESR?
19:11:46 <mcs> In other words, maybe do not just move our roadmap plans back 6 weeks (e.g,, start dates stay closer to where they are than the amount the ESR is moving)
19:12:06 <GeKo> like leaving, say, march blank and just do the stuff that did not get done earlier? :)
19:12:24 <mcs> Kind of, but it depends what else we should be working on.
19:12:30 <GeKo> mcs: okay, sounds reasonable
19:13:01 <arthuredelstein> that sounds reasonable to me as well
19:13:12 <GeKo> so, the thing that worries me most right now is that the critical months will be in the traditional vacation time
19:13:31 <GeKo> and i am already booked for things as i assumed the next esr will be 59
19:13:46 <GeKo> i have no idea how to deal with that yet
19:14:05 <GeKo> do we want to move the 7.5 release as well?
19:14:29 <GeKo> we usually had the x.5 releases somewhat loosely bound to the upcoming esr
19:15:23 <GeKo> shoud or brease to nightly plan be affected by that news?
19:15:27 <GeKo> *should
19:15:37 <GeKo> do we want to start later now as well?
19:16:23 <GeKo> my current thinking is to answer all three questions with "no"
19:17:02 <GeKo> that is to proceed in that regard without being bothered by which version will be the next esr
19:17:32 <arthuredelstein> We want to rebase TBB to ESR60, though, right?
19:17:42 <GeKo> yes
19:17:45 <arthuredelstein> So the rebase to nightly probably won't start until after the manual rebase.
19:17:48 <arthuredelstein> to ESR60.
19:18:04 <GeKo> that's one option
19:18:17 <GeKo> another one could be to do the heavy lifting for 59
19:18:33 <GeKo> because we sort of have the time for that right now
19:18:39 <arthuredelstein> Oh, I see. That's a good point.
19:18:46 <GeKo> and then do a small bit for 59 -> 60
19:18:55 <GeKo> so i am fine either way
19:19:21 <arthuredelstein> Yeah, actually I rather like that idea.
19:20:07 <GeKo> okay, then let's stick to that
19:20:25 <GeKo> i'll amend the roadmap accordingly
19:21:00 <GeKo> do we have anything else for this dicsussion item?
19:22:02 <GeKo> okay, let's move on then
19:22:11 <GeKo> igt0: so the propsoal
19:22:16 <GeKo> *proposal
19:22:40 <GeKo> yes, i think we'd need one for the torbutton and tor launcher port
19:22:53 <igt0> Yep, sysrqb and I have been in touch about it.
19:23:00 <GeKo> i guess mcs/brade and i should help with that
19:23:15 <sysrqb> yeah
19:23:23 <GeKo> for torbutton there is a P1-P5 above each function
19:23:27 <igt0> our main concern right now is the migration to webextension, since there are few roles in the API.
19:23:48 <mcs> what do you mean by “few roles?”
19:23:48 <GeKo> mikeperry did that long ago and we could get rid of quite a bunch of P1 stuff etc.
19:23:56 * arthuredelstein is also happy to help with torbutton port on things I worked on
19:24:07 <GeKo> yeah
19:24:13 <GeKo> this will be a team effort :)
19:24:27 <igt0> mcs, the api doesn't support few things such as changing few settings attributes or disabling the plugins
19:25:11 <mcs> igt0: got it. I think there are even more things missing that Tor Launcher needs (compared to Torbutton). But that is a guess.
19:25:17 <igt0> so it will need changes in the browser side :/
19:25:19 <arthuredelstein> So one option would be to move torbutton/torlauncher components into tor-browser.git. That would mean not having to rely on webextensions. And it would also help provide direction for the UX part of Project Fusion.
19:26:19 <sysrqb> `yes, that crossed my mind, too
19:26:24 <GeKo> that's a good idea as the whole extension thing is kind of a hack anyway
19:26:29 <isabela> yep
19:26:37 <arthuredelstein> Also it would be nice if we can keep as much code in common for both desktop and mobile.
19:26:45 <arthuredelstein> Only the UX part needs to be different; not the business logic.
19:26:48 <sysrqb> yep, for sure
19:27:00 <mcs> I wonder what the Mozilla people think is the best direction for us? I kind of like the “move it into the browser” solution (but research is required)
19:27:24 <isabela> mcs: 'move into the browser'?
19:27:31 <mcs> I am sure some refactoring needs to be done to make sharing backend code possible and cleaner.
19:27:39 <arthuredelstein> yes
19:27:43 <mcs> What arthuredelstein suggested
19:27:49 <isabela> ah
19:27:51 <mcs> isabela ^
19:27:51 <isabela> tx
19:28:52 <sysrqb> this can be included in the proposal as an alternative
19:29:10 <sysrqb> maybe it'll be easier to discuss the pro's and con's after the document is written
19:29:53 <sysrqb> tjr: will probably have valuable input
19:30:23 <sysrqb> (heh, sorry, not a message to you, just referencing you :) )
19:31:00 <tjr> :)
19:31:03 <GeKo> i am not sure whether we really need to have two different ways of doing things in the proposal
19:32:07 <GeKo> having all the things we need in the browser is appealing for a number of reasons
19:32:32 <GeKo> so, i'd say let's start with a proposal for that idea
19:32:49 <GeKo> and try to find out what works and what not
19:33:12 <GeKo> if we feel we hit a roadblock we can't bypass we still have the webextensions fallback plan
19:33:33 <GeKo> e.g. i have no clue right now what to do with the security slider :)
19:34:00 <GeKo> maybe we even end up with a hybrid solution: getting everything we can into the browser
19:34:09 <GeKo> and ship an extension for the remaining things
19:34:42 <GeKo> this could still be beneficial as it makes maintaining the extension part(s) easier
19:35:04 <mcs> There are some other products that use Tor Launcher but that can be sorted out over time.
19:35:26 <GeKo> hm!
19:35:40 <arthuredelstein> Tor Launcher needs Firefox whether it's an extension or built-in in any case.
19:35:58 <mcs> Well, it works in Thunderbird too.
19:36:10 <mcs> And Tor Messenger.
19:36:15 <mcs> But all Firefox-y things
19:36:21 <mcs> all of those are…
19:36:38 <arthuredelstein> I should have said Firefoxy :)
19:36:50 <mcs> A Webextension solution is probably worse for TBird
19:37:03 <mcs> (I am not sure they have a plan for their future in that area)
19:37:08 <GeKo> they don't
19:37:33 <GeKo> okay, interesting!
19:37:49 <GeKo> i guess we could continue discussing that in the meeting after this one
19:38:02 <GeKo> (there will be a mobile tor browser sync afterwards
19:38:12 <GeKo> feel free to attend everyone)
19:38:23 <GeKo> do we have anything else for now for this item?
19:38:25 <Riastradh> Before you folks go, since it sounds like you've finished up your agenda...
19:39:25 <Riastradh> I'd like to introduce myself.  I recently started working at Brave, partly on some security things, and partly to provide some kind of first-class Tor integration into Brave.
19:39:40 <GeKo> neat. welcome!
19:39:42 <sysrqb> awesome!
19:39:45 <sysrqb> congrats
19:39:49 <Riastradh> Thanks!
19:39:51 <arthuredelstein> hi Riastradh! Great to have you here.
19:40:13 <isabela> hi Riastradh o/
19:40:21 <Riastradh> I don't have anything in particular to ask or to contribute at the moment, but I will be hanging around to pay attention to what's going on in the Firefoxy Tor land.
19:40:34 <Riastradh> isabela: Hi!  We met briefly at Libreplanet this past March, I think.
19:40:50 <isabela> aha! :)
19:41:02 <GeKo> Riastradh: feel free to ask things if there is something unclear and let us know how we can help
19:41:36 <isabela> ( mcs - there is a question from me on the pad to you and brade about meeting this wed)
19:41:50 <GeKo> tjr: regarding the sandboxing item you wrote in the pad
19:42:10 <Riastradh> Our current plan is not to make a super-airtight browser that will rival the Tor Browser and thwart targeted attacks by major world governments, but for a first approximation, the more modest goal of thwarting targeted advertising's mass surveillance.
19:42:17 <GeKo> i wonder how we can tackle the remaining bits for windows
19:42:20 <mcs> isabela: 2000 UTC on Wed is fine for us
19:42:28 <isabela> mcs: great :)
19:43:00 <tjr> My intention had been to rebase the patches you applied to 52 and try to get them uplifted. Is there more 'bits' than that?
19:43:03 <Riastradh> And there's institutional support to make it a first-class part of Brave.
19:43:11 <tjr> (Not counting anything that's occurred between 52 and today)
19:43:25 <GeKo> tjr: no. if you could do that that would be neat
19:43:37 <GeKo> the code has PoC quality though
19:43:57 <GeKo> so, we needed to hotfix things for getting it working at all
19:44:03 <Riastradh> So I might have questions, and if you folks have questions about Brave or want to alert someone responsible to privacy or anonymity issues in it, let me know.
19:44:44 <GeKo> tjr: so, you'd probably need to spend a bit more time on that one than "just upstreaming"
19:45:08 <sysrqb> Riastradh: sounds great, thanks! I'm interested in your plan for adding a UI and making it usable, but that can be discussed later :)
19:45:12 <tjr> for working at all you mean 'getting it running' after you got it built?
19:45:29 <arthuredelstein> Riastradh: cool! very glad to help in any way possible
19:45:31 <tjr> I expect to be pretty busy until at the very earliest mid-January; but it's priority is basically "It needs to get into the next ESR."
19:46:07 <GeKo> tjr: cool. and no, i meant just fixing code issues that prevented compilation
19:46:30 <GeKo> but i fixed those only minimally, i.e. where the compilation really broke
19:46:31 <tjr> ah okay.
19:48:23 <GeKo> alright, anything else for today's meeting?
19:48:44 <GeKo> i guess i could announce that this one was the last meeting this year
19:49:02 <sysrqb> :) :(
19:49:03 <GeKo> and the next one should be, i think, on jan 8 2018
19:49:25 <GeKo> in case i have not said this previously explicitely enough:
19:49:37 <GeKo> it was a pleasure and an honor to work with you all!
19:49:47 <isabela> \o/
19:49:50 <pospeselr> hah
19:49:57 <GeKo> and i am excited of the things to come in 2018 :)
19:50:00 * mcs hopes GeKo is coming back for more fun in 2018
19:50:03 <mcs> ah, good!
19:50:08 <pospeselr> *whew*
19:50:10 <sysrqb> heh
19:50:19 <isabela> heheh
19:50:41 <igt0> \(^O^)/
19:50:45 <GeKo> hehe. while am looking forward to get rid of tor browser that won't happen so fast :)
19:50:47 <sysrqb> it's been a fun two weeks so far
19:50:52 <isabela> lol
19:51:01 <GeKo> thanks all *baf*
19:51:04 <GeKo> #endmeeting