15:04:02 <isabela> #startmeeting TB and UX team sync!
15:04:02 <MeetBot> Meeting started Wed Jan 10 15:04:02 2018 UTC.  The chair is isabela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04:02 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:04:04 <sysrqb> o/
15:04:35 <isabela> thanks everyone for showing up to this :) I hope I didnt freaked anyone out with the never end list of things to do
15:04:55 <isabela> but! this will be a revolution on the user experience for tor browser!
15:04:57 <isabela> hehee
15:05:07 <antonela> \o/
15:05:37 * GeKo stumbles in
15:06:20 <isabela> so the goal today is just for us to acknowledge these tasks and fill up those fields i left there, i think i want one more field there, for when TB thinks they can deal with it so we on the UX side can plan our things
15:06:26 <isabela> but first!
15:06:43 <isabela> any questions on the 'working model' i drafted? or suggestions or
15:06:59 <isabela> that is based on how we are doing already (more or less)
15:07:44 <isabela> (does everyone has the pad link?)
15:07:51 * GeKo is reading
15:07:51 <antonela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/-dCklkMOYUHOJtQKHOkOTWry5Gz_6Hqqk325z0n1l03
15:08:04 <isabela> tx antonela !
15:08:21 <antonela> np
15:08:46 <mcs> (btw, deleting all of my storm.torproject.org cookies fixed my access problem)
15:08:56 <isabela> aha
15:09:58 <mcs> My only comment on the working model is that we should strive for user testing/feedback during the alpha phase
15:10:09 <isabela> yes
15:10:12 <GeKo> +1
15:10:26 <isabela> that is our goal indeed
15:10:32 <mcs> sounds good!
15:10:50 <isabela> btw ux team will put out there a job post for a user research coordinator (dedicated person to drive this process)
15:11:22 <GeKo> isabela: looks like a good model to work with to me
15:11:38 <isabela> now is kind of hard as we are starting, like we will test in India the Tor Launcher but is almost out on stable already
15:12:12 <isabela> in the other hand, antonela will also test the .onion stuff which is nowhere yet! :)
15:12:22 <antonela> yes!
15:12:29 <isabela> so we are out of sync on these :) hehe but we will get better
15:12:41 <igt0> isabela, about this one Mobile Tor Launcher equivalent experience of Activity 4.1: Improve how circuits are displayed to the user, is it a tor launcher or button thing? (i am asking because the circuits are shown by the tor button, on Desktop)
15:12:57 <isabela> ops
15:13:01 <isabela> that is a copy and paste
15:13:03 <isabela> bug
15:13:04 <isabela> hehe
15:13:40 <antonela> igt0
15:13:41 <igt0> cool beans
15:14:38 <antonela> igt0: my proposal to move it out the tor button is just an approach. I dont think we arrived to a final decision there yet
15:14:44 <isabela> igt0: fixed
15:15:12 <isabela> one is about how the connection with tor will work, and if the user needs a brigdge how they will do that etc
15:15:22 <isabela> and the other is about antonela work on the display
15:15:29 <isabela> ok
15:15:36 <isabela> if everyone is cool with the work model
15:15:41 <GeKo> regarding a poc for 5.1
15:15:50 <isabela> yes
15:15:52 <GeKo> i think it would make sense if mcs/brade would be that
15:15:59 <GeKo> as they worked on the about:tor page part
15:16:20 <GeKo> mcs: do you think that would work for you?
15:16:39 <GeKo> i am fine being the one for 2.1
15:16:53 <isabela> great
15:17:03 <isabela> please add these info in the pad directly
15:17:07 <isabela> i was going to go down the list
15:17:18 <mcs> I think that’s fine. Later we can decide who will do the implementation work (depending on timing and what everyone has on their plate).
15:17:36 <GeKo> yep
15:18:00 <isabela> ok
15:18:07 <GeKo> regarding the .onion things. i have arthur on the roadmap for implementing those
15:18:13 <isabela> lets go down the list to make sure we cover everything
15:18:21 <GeKo> i'd love to involve tjr as the PoC
15:18:31 <GeKo> but i don't know whether he would be up for that
15:18:38 <isabela> we can check
15:19:02 <isabela> can we have a estimate date of when arthuredelstein will work on it (like which month)
15:19:23 <isabela> i think that will help us on ux side
15:19:42 <GeKo> well, i guess that depends on when the things progressed sufficiently in .onion land
15:19:46 <isabela> GeKo: but lets go down the list in order hehe
15:19:58 <GeKo> it's planned for jan/feb
15:20:00 <GeKo> sure
15:20:27 <isabela> Tor Launcher new UI <- i think we know what is going on here
15:20:31 <isabela> but any questions?
15:20:59 <isabela> these 2 are the next steps:
15:20:59 <isabela> build moat in the bridge configuration part [almost done, blocked on network team side]
15:21:02 <isabela> update progress bar [not done yet]
15:21:17 <isabela> one is blocked the other i would say to discuss and add to roadmap once in rome
15:21:36 <GeKo> sounds good to me and no questions
15:21:43 <mcs> that sounds fine to me as well.
15:21:52 <isabela> ok moving on :)
15:21:58 <isabela> Activity 4.1: Improve how circuits are displayed to the user
15:22:21 <isabela> i left a comment there
15:22:31 <isabela> arthuredelstein: what do you think?
15:22:41 <isabela> also lets see if we can a 'when' there too
15:23:07 <isabela> (also, is good to say, we should sync on this with more time and i will organize such sync)
15:23:23 <arthuredelstein> I think it's definitely possible to implement.
15:24:31 <arthuredelstein> One question I still have is whether users will still be able to find the circuit display :)
15:24:59 <arthuredelstein> But maybe that's for a separate discussion :)
15:25:00 <isabela> arthuredelstein: that will be solved with the new about:tor
15:25:25 <isabela> but before that we can have together with the launch something that points out the new feature
15:25:48 <GeKo> yep
15:26:15 <GeKo> i like having the site-specific information where it quite naturally belongs
15:26:21 <GeKo> good idea
15:26:45 <isabela> ok, giving that people are optimist with this approach :) when TB would pick up this to implement? (so we ux can make sure to be ready)
15:27:06 * arthuredelstein is trying to find the roadmap document
15:27:17 <GeKo> i think we can start right now
15:27:26 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/roevbMxlBi5rxSAh57iRjy8w1MB2HZArEmM2JekbqPM
15:27:41 <GeKo> i had it on the roadmap for dec but that was probably quite optimistic
15:28:17 <isabela> ok
15:28:27 <isabela> i will add it jan and we move on :) sorry long list
15:28:51 <isabela> ".Onion everywhere?: increasing the use of onion services through automatic redirects and aliasing"
15:29:01 <isabela> i think this ball is on network team field
15:29:07 <isabela> for now
15:29:18 <isabela> so i will jump that if its ok
15:30:05 <GeKo> ok
15:30:26 <isabela> "Communicating security expectations for .onion: what to say about different padlock states for .onion services"
15:30:44 <isabela> so, question about implemenation
15:33:43 <isabela> GeKo: do you want to leave it for rome roadmaping?
15:34:02 <GeKo> we could.
15:34:35 <GeKo> are we all on the same page on what to implement given the mozilla feedback?
15:34:40 <isabela> yes
15:34:57 <GeKo> like, do we agree to not show positive indicators etc.?
15:34:58 <isabela> last meeting we decided that what is on the gdoc is what we will do
15:35:04 <GeKo> aha
15:35:37 <isabela> we will have tests on it too
15:36:21 <GeKo> you mean https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KHkj2DpmFMB0mjHEfehD5ztY2L0lQzKNtZqct1TXbmg/edit ?
15:36:29 <isabela> yes
15:36:47 <GeKo> but that shows all possible states and icons we can consider
15:36:48 <isabela> we also plan to do some test in india and other places when possible
15:37:01 <isabela> ok i meant what is on the table
15:37:38 <isabela> the copy is not final there btw
15:37:55 <antonela> HTTPS Site embeds onion still missing, should we jump on it isa?
15:38:03 <GeKo> yes
15:38:25 <GeKo> there are fields missing
15:38:25 <antonela> is not a normal https mixed content?
15:38:42 <isabela> Keeps Original Padlock
15:38:48 <isabela> these rules are the ones there
15:38:50 <antonela> ohh
15:38:58 <antonela> sorry
15:39:05 <isabela> so we will just use the icon according to the rule
15:39:11 <isabela> we dont need to create a new one
15:39:12 <antonela> perfect
15:39:36 <isabela> GeKo: makes sense?
15:39:57 <GeKo> there is the ???????????? case :)
15:40:21 <isabela> true
15:40:24 <GeKo> so, we have positive and negative indicators then, okay
15:40:35 <isabela> i think that should be the green onion
15:40:48 <isabela> sorry its like that because that was an open question regarding onnion http icon
15:41:00 <isabela> later we decided to go with it being greeen onion
15:41:41 <igt0> when the user clicks in the padlock, will it open the same door hanging widget available on Firefox?
15:42:34 <GeKo> isabela: okay, could we get a final document or something containing no gaps and all the things included we want to have?
15:42:44 <arthuredelstein> igt0: Yes, I think that's the plan
15:42:47 <GeKo> then we can post the link to that one on the ticket
15:43:02 <isabela> GeKo: yes, that is why i was asking when the plan to implement it is to know when we need to ready by
15:43:12 <GeKo> i would like to hear tjr's opinion on that one especially with his mozilla hat on
15:43:21 <GeKo> ah, okay
15:43:37 <isabela> GeKo: tjr was at all meetings
15:43:47 <isabela> all this was done with his opinion btw
15:44:20 <isabela> i actually copied and pasted what he suggested in the ticket
15:44:27 <GeKo> yeah, the thing i don't remember is whether that was after the all hands feedback or before
15:44:32 <GeKo> i thought before
15:44:36 <isabela> ok
15:44:42 <isabela> after all hands we did had a meeting too
15:44:50 <isabela> which was the one wehre we agreed to move on with it
15:44:58 <GeKo> okay
15:45:09 <arthuredelstein> GeKo: I think the "no positive indicators" discussion was about Mozilla's aspirations for the future
15:45:13 <isabela> meetbot logs are out there
15:45:13 <MeetBot> isabela: Error: "logs" is not a valid command.
15:45:16 <isabela> lol
15:45:20 <GeKo> ha
15:45:20 <arthuredelstein> :)
15:45:28 <GeKo> arthuredelstein: makes sense
15:45:36 <arthuredelstein> Of course right now, HTTPS sites still have a positive indicator (green padlock)
15:45:42 <isabela> yes
15:45:44 <GeKo> isabela: they let's try to have the ux side ready by end of this month?
15:45:53 <isabela> that is why we decided to move and do our own tests on what we have
15:46:02 <GeKo> and we can then start finding time to implement that
15:46:14 <isabela> sounds good, anto will do test in india too
15:46:19 <isabela> so maybe eom early feb?
15:46:30 <GeKo> okay, sorry for being dense here
15:46:34 <GeKo> sounds good
15:46:37 <isabela> k
15:46:54 <antonela> super
15:46:58 <isabela> ok
15:47:35 <isabela> ok
15:47:36 <isabela> Activity 2.1: Improve user understanding and control by clarifying Tor Browser’s security features (the Security Slider and NoScript).
15:47:39 <isabela> ^^
15:47:45 <isabela> POC stays GeKo ?
15:47:50 <isabela> i think that is all we need here for now
15:47:58 <GeKo> yes, i start writing the proposal this week
15:48:02 <isabela> cool
15:48:12 <GeKo> (not sure how long it takes, though :) )
15:48:19 <isabela> yeah
15:48:40 <isabela> i wont ask 'when' question if we are not on step 3 or 4
15:48:40 <isabela> hehe
15:48:52 <isabela> Mobile Tor Launcher equivalent experience
15:48:54 <isabela> ^^
15:49:08 <sysrqb> yeah...
15:49:11 <isabela> heheheh
15:49:22 <isabela> i left a coment there
15:49:55 <sysrqb> about OnionBrowser?
15:50:00 <isabela> so poc is you on this sysrqb ?
15:50:00 <isabela> yes
15:50:18 <isabela> i will say if we can get the poc for each mobile tasks we can schedule syncs on it to discuss solutions
15:50:21 <sysrqb> yeah, i'll take the poc
15:50:38 * antonela updating the pad
15:50:45 <isabela> tx
15:50:45 <sysrqb> but I am not sure about the future of Tor Browesr vs Orbot
15:50:51 <mcs> Please include brade and myself for the Tor Launcher mobile stuff (as consultants)
15:50:54 <sysrqb> but we can discuss that a little more later
15:51:12 <isabela> ok
15:51:18 <isabela> Mobile equivalent experience of  Activity 4.1: Improve how circuits are displayed to the user - part of Igor's proposal
15:51:23 <isabela> ^^ will assume igt0 is poc
15:51:24 <isabela> hehe
15:51:59 <igt0> yep
15:52:19 <isabela> Mobile equivalent experience of  Activity 2.1: Improve user understanding and control by clarifying Tor Browser’s security features (the Security Slider and NoScript).
15:52:25 <isabela> ^^ geko poc is you?
15:52:30 <GeKo> yes
15:52:46 <GeKo> or, i can be it at least :)
15:52:58 <isabela> hehehe
15:52:59 <isabela> ok
15:53:13 <isabela> so this: Activity 5.1: Redesign Tor Browser’s landing page (“about:tor”) to inform users about various Tor features and settings they can use to customize their experience.
15:53:18 <isabela> mcs and brade
15:53:42 <isabela> antonela: we will probably pick this up after rome right?
15:53:52 <antonela> sounds good
15:53:53 <GeKo> the other three items are byond our roadmap fwiw
15:54:03 <GeKo> so i guess we can speculate wildly :)
15:54:29 <isabela> i think about:tor has a depencency on  Activity 2.1 and Activity 4.1
15:54:54 <isabela> because we will build an onboarding with that and it would be more productive to build it with the new experiences already landed
15:54:55 <GeKo> not necessarily
15:55:05 <GeKo> well, yes
15:55:09 <GeKo> we could do it that way
15:55:12 * tjr is around now
15:55:17 <GeKo> o/
15:55:22 <isabela> o/
15:55:27 <sysrqb> isabela: question about tor-launcher on mobile, is it expected tor browser on android will control/configure tor or will orbot do that?
15:55:47 <sysrqb> now, orbotis responsible now
15:55:52 <isabela> yes
15:55:57 <GeKo> the idea was to give the user the same experience as on desktop
15:56:05 <isabela> but we do hope to have it booting tor by itself without needing to instal orbot
15:56:12 <isabela> *install
15:56:16 <GeKo> yes
15:56:37 <sysrqb> okay, great :) we like that, but I wasn't aware this was on the roaddmap :)
15:56:43 <sysrqb> thanks
15:56:56 <sysrqb> (but mrore complicated...)
15:57:06 <isabela> true, i guess that meeting to review roadmap became about something else and we never really reviewed
15:57:23 <isabela> i will fix that :)
15:57:24 <sysrqb> no  worries
15:58:15 <isabela> GeKo: we will do what we can regarding the about:tor i am not too worry, as we will have to build it in a way we can always update it (because it will change over time as we change stuff)
15:58:43 <isabela> but having an onboarding going out with the new features in place would be neat
15:58:46 <isabela> hehe
15:59:00 <isabela> ok moving on
15:59:26 <isabela> Activity 1.2: Make sure Firefox Photon UI works with our style guidelines
15:59:33 <isabela> anyone want to be poc for this? should be quite easy
15:59:43 <antonela> me?
15:59:54 <isabela> i mean from TB side
15:59:55 <arthuredelstein> That seems closely related to the last activity
16:00:14 <isabela> i guess we can ask mozilla designer today at our sync if they want to be reviewers or something
16:00:31 <isabela> arthuredelstein: so maybe mcs and brade?
16:00:34 <mcs> Is activity 1,2 about us conforming to the Photon UI or something else?
16:00:48 <mcs> The wording in the pad seems kind of backwards to me.
16:00:50 <isabela> conforming but also anto will adapt it to our guidleines
16:00:57 <isabela> so it will be modified a bit
16:00:58 <arthuredelstein> Sorry, I meant activity 1.1 (the final one in the doc)
16:01:08 <isabela> arthuredelstein: ah
16:01:11 <isabela> yes indeed
16:01:53 <antonela> i assume we will follow Firefox Photon UI, we need to check if our current version of things is alignated with them
16:01:59 <antonela> am i right? or viceversa?
16:02:05 <isabela> mcs: 1.2 is like using photon with some things changed and 1.1 is more like upating the tor browser logo to follow guidleines
16:02:09 <isabela> *guidelines
16:02:22 <isabela> antonela: yes
16:02:30 <antonela> cool
16:02:36 <mcs> Okay. I suspect we want to change as little as possible (it may be a lot of work to make big changes ;)
16:02:42 <GeKo> i h ave to leave. i'll check backlog later
16:02:46 <GeKo> o/
16:02:50 <isabela> GeKo: o/
16:02:57 <antonela> bye Geko, thanks for coming early!
16:03:24 <GeKo> ha, no, a bunch of others came early
16:03:30 <antonela> haha
16:03:33 <isabela> mcs: yes, i think the poc will work with antonela on that, but it shouldn't be too much, more like colors or fonts that we make sure follow us
16:03:37 <isabela> s/us/ours
16:03:42 <arthuredelstein> I could be a contact person for 1.2 if you need someone on the TBB side
16:03:45 <mcs> sounds good.
16:03:51 <isabela> k
16:04:11 <isabela> arthuredelstein: also 1.1? or will that be mcs ?
16:04:18 <antonela> arthuredelstein: super (:
16:05:00 <mcs> I am okay with Arthur being the PoC for both but either way is fine/
16:05:07 <isabela> ok
16:05:10 <arthuredelstein> Any way is fine with me too
16:05:21 <isabela> Activity 3.1: Improve the user experience of updating Tor Browser.
16:05:26 <isabela> ^^ any candidate for this one
16:05:38 <isabela> (we are almost done :)
16:05:43 <mcs> Probably mcs and brade since we have had our hands in the updater the most
16:05:49 <isabela> cool
16:06:10 <isabela> alright let me give you some idea of what is next
16:06:48 <isabela> for mobile - we should sync soon on these tasks as you are starting with this work and need to get some direction defined soon (right?)
16:08:13 <n8fr8> regarding tor integration into orfox/tor-browser-android just want to remind everyone about these projects: https://github.com/n8fr8/tor-android and https://github.com/guardianproject/Tor_Onion_Proxy_Library
16:08:15 <isabela> for desktop - we will pick you up for review and move on with tasks. i think everyone knows more or less the order we will be doing things
16:08:33 <isabela> n8fr8: tx o/
16:08:41 <n8fr8> these are essentially ready to go as mechanisms for building the tor binary, and then a API/library for using it directly w/o orbot
16:08:53 <isabela> i will keep this pad open and we will use it from time to time to review these projects
16:09:21 <isabela> i really appreciate everyone showing up for this, is a boring meeting i know
16:09:23 <n8fr8> happy for these to be moved over under a tor project developer control, but also expecting to move to these as a dependency for orbot as well
16:09:51 <isabela> but is good to get everyone updated on what is going on with the browser regarding the user experience
16:10:46 <isabela> does anyone has any questions any comments about this pad or what's next?
16:10:50 <isabela> before i end the bot
16:12:04 <mcs> thanks for organzing this meeting and the work to be done
16:12:10 <mcs> organizing too
16:12:14 <arthuredelstein> thanks, isabela!
16:12:51 <isabela> alright i will end it! :)
16:12:58 <isabela> #endmeeting