14:29:55 <karsten> #startmeeting metrics team
14:29:55 <MeetBot> Meeting started Thu Jan 18 14:29:55 2018 UTC.  The chair is karsten. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:29:55 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:30:25 <karsten> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/Oh4g0hNenh65QZNWRsIe5zxpB3e0axASeSgo5hKOp2A <- agenda pad
14:30:55 * iwakeh disconnected from storm again, sigh
14:31:00 <karsten> :(
14:31:46 <karsten> so, we started collecting ideas related to the metrics team priorities thread on the pad.
14:32:04 <karsten> irl, want to review what's there, and maybe add something else?
14:35:02 * isabela is around
14:35:07 <karsten> hey isabela!
14:35:09 <iwakeh> hi!
14:35:13 * isabela read karsten's email but havent had the time to reply yet
14:35:15 <isabela> :)
14:35:15 <karsten> we're on the pad, want to join us there?
14:35:20 <isabela> sure
14:35:25 <iwakeh> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/Oh4g0hNenh65QZNWRsIe5zxpB3e0axASeSgo5hKOp2A
14:35:44 <isabela> tx
14:37:06 <isabela> so i have answers or comments on some of those items
14:37:11 <isabela> should i write it at the pad?
14:37:21 <karsten> fine question.
14:37:32 <karsten> we could also discuss here and update the pad in parallel.
14:37:40 <irl> do we have a completeish list? we could take them one at a time here
14:37:44 <karsten> it was useful to collect some ideas prior to the meeting.
14:38:08 <iwakeh> yes
14:38:09 <karsten> a list of ideas? just what's on the pad.
14:38:27 <irl> i mean, do people have lots more to add or are we ready to discuss them?
14:38:33 <karsten> aha!
14:38:35 <isabela> ok
14:38:42 <iwakeh> The list looks complete.
14:38:43 <isabela> so i will leave it for the discussion here ;)
14:38:57 <karsten> I think the list looks good enough.
14:39:03 <karsten> we could go through it now, if we want.
14:39:13 <iwakeh> we should ;-)
14:39:14 <irl> ok
14:39:21 <karsten> ok!
14:39:21 <karsten> 1) borrow people from other teams for specific tasks (teor)
14:39:32 <isabela> i think 1 will be hard as other teams are still overwhelmed (so that will depend on their priorities too)
14:39:34 <karsten> this came up in teor's response to the list, and it sounds like a good idea.
14:39:52 <karsten> ah, hmm.
14:39:59 <isabela> right now i am having to make a decision regarding that for another task (not related to metrics)
14:40:04 <isabela> and is being a hard decision
14:40:11 <irl> it doesn't have to be for the whole task, like the ooni stats, where they do most of the work and we just finish it off to integrate
14:40:32 <isabela> yes, i would say it would depend on case by case
14:40:45 <karsten> maybe this is something where we come up with possible tasks that we could give away, and then we ask.
14:40:50 <karsten> where no is a valid answer.
14:41:08 <karsten> but I see how others are overloaded, too.
14:41:35 <isabela> my question would also be, is this task a feature request from another team
14:41:46 <isabela> or is it a dependency from a feature metrics is doing
14:42:00 <iwakeh> true, ask for support when supporting other teams.
14:42:03 <isabela> things like that makes a difference
14:42:27 <isabela> if a team is asking metrics for something - they should indeed carry on whatever they can from the work to get it done
14:42:45 <isabela> and has the minimum part that is metrics team only done by metrics team
14:42:46 <karsten> yes, that is already happening, I'd say.
14:43:13 <isabela> but if metrics team has tasks of their own that can't be done because of lack of people
14:43:50 <isabela> we need to prioritize the team capacity rather for a longer term solution
14:43:58 <karsten> yes, that is true.
14:44:02 <karsten> that would be 6).
14:44:09 <isabela> yes
14:44:13 <karsten> I think 1) is mostly a short-term thing.
14:44:23 <karsten> or, casual thing.
14:44:48 <isabela> have you done an exercise with the current tasks (that is overwhelming the team) where this can be applied to?
14:45:06 <karsten> not really.
14:45:12 <isabela> maybe leave it as a homework then
14:45:32 <karsten> one example where this would be useful is that teor could help out with reviewing the documentation for sponsor 13 for the ipv6 stats feature he asked for.
14:45:42 <karsten> but we don't have a list yet. the idea is just too new.
14:45:48 <isabela> :)
14:45:51 <isabela> understood
14:45:57 <karsten> should we drive this by you before we reach out to other teams?
14:46:13 <karsten> and you tell us if this makes sense or overloads other teams too much?
14:46:31 <isabela> i dont think is needed.. just hope others will know how to balance their priorities too :) so it doesnt start a snow ball effect hehe
14:46:37 <karsten> hehe
14:46:39 <karsten> okay.
14:47:07 <isabela> so
14:47:10 <isabela> that makes me think of point 2
14:47:20 <karsten> yep
14:47:23 <karsten> 2) improve communication with other teams: when they need something, how important is it, etc. (teor)
14:47:26 <isabela> because after montreal i tried to get communication improved
14:47:29 <isabela> specially on this point
14:47:40 <isabela> and i would like feedback from you on how that can be improved
14:47:45 <isabela> if it helped, or not really, or
14:48:20 <karsten> I think we have a rough idea about these things.
14:48:23 <isabela> i also do plan on having in febrauary another round of checking roadmaps etc with all teams
14:48:26 <isabela> before rome
14:48:57 <irl> i think our roadmap was longer term than other teams
14:49:10 <karsten> that is true.
14:49:19 <karsten> but it does contain some tasks that others requested from us.
14:49:35 <iwakeh> we could revisit these tasks.
14:49:40 <karsten> I wrote some homework tasks on the pad.
14:49:51 <irl> maybe we can say the roadmap is good for the first 6 months, advisory after that and subject to change
14:49:51 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/q_p0wEV7Nh1vlLHJEtogtiT--AgDX1nKBu04Bo9z4Ib
14:50:03 <isabela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/q_p0wEV7Nh1vlLHJEtogtiT--AgDX1nKBu04Bo9z4Ib
14:50:13 <iwakeh> @irl +1
14:50:14 <isabela> both links are not necessary for now, but maybe could be used as retrospective
14:50:26 <isabela> irl: +1
14:50:37 <isabela> i am suggesting to teams to plan from dev meeting to dev meeting
14:50:38 <karsten> irl: yes, sounds about right.
14:50:54 <isabela> so in rome roadmaps are from april till november
14:51:05 <isabela> in montreal most folks did from november till march
14:51:07 <iwakeh> our sponsor commitment is longer than the dev2deev interval.
14:51:24 <isabela> is ok
14:51:31 <isabela> you can still map it
14:51:54 <karsten> okay.
14:51:56 <isabela> but i would say to focus on that timeframe and make sure that planing is good - is easier
14:52:13 <isabela> network team mapped longer than march
14:52:25 <isabela> but the meat of it was the 6 months time frame
14:52:32 <karsten> this roadmap was also a bit harder to write, not only because it was for 12 months,
14:52:49 <karsten> but because we did a vision experiment where we took a step back and thought about what we want to achieve.
14:53:00 <karsten> not directly related to months 1-6 or 7-12.
14:53:01 <isabela> (which is good too!)
14:53:23 <karsten> yes, I think so, too.
14:53:34 <karsten> on to 3?
14:53:44 <karsten> 3) be clearer who in the team works on what and how long they expect it to take, possibly using Trac (karsten)
14:54:01 <isabela> yes
14:54:05 <karsten> this just came to mind. it would be nice to have a better idea on who's working on what.
14:54:24 <karsten> in particular if we add more people (1 or 6).
14:54:31 <iwakeh> yep.
14:54:41 <karsten> what do you think about the suggestions on the pad?
14:54:54 <iwakeh> we use 'assigned' and set reviewer here and there.
14:54:56 <isabela> and that follows roadmap planning, like when you have a month full of tasks, doing a bit of capacity exercise to see if you aren't over promissing will help avoid getting overwhelmed
14:54:57 <irl> i already accept tickets i'm going to work on, but not necessarily in the next week
14:54:57 <karsten> that is, accepting a ticket means there will likely be progress within 1 week.
14:55:13 <irl> accepting the ticket and being the owner means it gets pulled into my task queue by a cron job
14:55:32 <isabela> do you use points ?
14:55:33 <irl> in july though, it probably would mean in the next week for me
14:55:40 <isabela> or time estimation for a task
14:55:49 <iwakeh> no points?
14:55:52 <karsten> isabela: no, we don't.
14:55:58 * irl doesn't know what the points do
14:56:07 <karsten> maybe we can also pick something else than assigned.
14:56:14 <iwakeh> accepted
14:56:17 <isabela> so
14:56:18 <karsten> yes, that.
14:56:23 <isabela> is more than assigned right?
14:56:33 <iwakeh> well, agreed assignment
14:56:37 <karsten> (are they different? ...)
14:56:39 <isabela> like karsten can have 10 tasks that takes him 3 hours each assigned for the month
14:56:50 <isabela> or 1 task assigned that will take him 3 weeks
14:57:03 <iwakeh> assigned doesn't have a time frame attached.
14:57:24 <isabela> so points is just a way to calculate how much of your time you are committing to at the end.
14:57:32 <iwakeh> maybe, we should do a homework about the trac process?
14:57:37 <karsten> random thought: if I have a ticket assigned and am not making progress within a week but plan to do so very soon, I update it saying so.
14:57:46 <isabela> you can create a table fo that, the team decides it, like one point means a week of work
14:57:57 <karsten> regarding points, I'm not sure whether that will not create more work in the short term.
14:58:22 <isabela> karsten: afaik that is the best solution to know if you are overcommitting
14:58:33 <isabela> just having tasks assigned doesnt give you that
14:58:36 <karsten> yes, and maybe that's something we should do before rome.
14:58:41 <karsten> true.
14:58:49 <iwakeh> makes sense.
14:59:01 <isabela> i can help you all with it and over time it gets better
14:59:09 <isabela> also, you dont need to be precise
14:59:37 <karsten> still, it seems less lightweight as the minor changes I suggested.
14:59:43 <karsten> more heavyweight*
14:59:48 <isabela> is ok not to be - is better to have any data at all to guide you and then you learn over time how to better estimate work
14:59:50 <iwakeh> I used planning poker before, it was useful.
15:00:05 <iwakeh> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_poker
15:00:10 <irl> for big tasks, i tend to split these into smaller tickets as i use burndown charts to see whether i'm winning or losing
15:00:12 <isabela> karsten: is not as heayweight as you might think
15:00:21 <isabela> see!
15:00:25 <isabela> yall doing it already
15:00:25 <isabela> hehe
15:00:51 <karsten> okay, what should we do in the short term?
15:01:02 <karsten> to ensure that we're soon making progress on sponsor 13.
15:01:06 <iwakeh> wait for a little room iand
15:01:09 <isabela> i also would be happy to be around in rome and see if we can get it done for the roadmap you create
15:01:15 <karsten> without leaving everything else behind.
15:01:24 <iwakeh> revise the process on trac a little to also include estimation.
15:01:46 <iwakeh> the planning poker is quite helpful
15:01:51 <iwakeh> and not too demanding.
15:01:53 <karsten> and do that in rome?
15:02:08 <iwakeh> there too but
15:02:14 <iwakeh> already before.
15:02:15 <isabela> karsten: you should triage everything else and start making call of what you can move for latter in order to prioritize sponsor13
15:02:33 <isabela> iwakeh: +1
15:03:35 <karsten> ok.
15:03:45 <karsten> please add things to the pad that I'm otherwise missing.
15:04:23 <karsten> isabela: what you're saying sounds like it would fit into 4.
15:04:27 <karsten> 4) be clearer to people outside of the team what our priorities are, possibly using metrics-2018-q1 etc. keywords (karsten)
15:04:40 <isabela> yes
15:04:41 <karsten> which includes people inside the team, too, of course.
15:04:43 <isabela> indeed
15:05:35 <karsten> for that triage, would it help to do another round of keyword assignments as we did in berlin last september?
15:05:40 <karsten> just, virtually?
15:05:45 <isabela> so, with the ux team, every week we open our roadmap and go item by item of that month
15:05:59 <isabela> so we are always reassessing things
15:06:04 <karsten> how... organized. :D
15:06:26 <iwakeh> ;)
15:06:27 * karsten has to admit that he hasn't looked at the roadmap for a while..
15:06:31 <isabela> yeah
15:06:39 * iwakeh neither
15:06:39 <isabela> so i would suggest that
15:06:55 <isabela> because if a task created tons of bugs and that is taking more time than expected
15:07:06 <isabela> you know things will need to be readjusted
15:07:18 <karsten> yep. just happened with the onionoo graphs.
15:07:25 <iwakeh> well, tasks usually disclose bugs they don't create them (nitpicking).
15:07:32 <isabela> hehe
15:07:36 <isabela> fair :)
15:07:50 <irl> we create the bugs, not the tasks
15:07:54 <isabela> but yeah, always reviewing yoru plan make sure your plan is reflecting reality
15:08:17 <iwakeh> reality is reflecting the plan.
15:08:25 <iwakeh> at some point in time :)
15:08:38 <isabela> yep - so that is my suggestion for 5
15:09:16 <iwakeh> wait, with the accept-> new
15:09:29 <irl> clearing bugs before taking on new enhancements should also reduce technical debt
15:09:40 <karsten> irl: +1
15:09:43 <irl> meaning that when we do get to the enhancements, they'll take less time
15:09:45 <iwakeh> we also use accept b/c one person is goind to work on that
15:10:03 <iwakeh> and knows more about the task at hand
15:10:25 <karsten> yes, but if it takes them weeks or months to do it, maybe somebody else should do it.
15:10:28 <irl> iwakeh: we could use assigned (you can also self-assign)
15:10:31 <iwakeh> thus, it might introduce more work if someone else takes over.
15:10:32 <karsten> (and I'm totally including myself there.)
15:10:53 <iwakeh> true, too.
15:11:26 <iwakeh> fine.
15:11:28 <karsten> and again, it would be fine to reset the timer by saying on the ticket that one is still planning to work on something.
15:11:56 <iwakeh> would that be a use-case for points?
15:11:56 <karsten> I could imagine that after the 3rd such message, one would realize that things might not work out as planned.
15:12:06 <karsten> how?
15:12:25 <iwakeh> I thought, points are reflecting the time left?
15:12:36 <iwakeh> left to work on a task.
15:12:53 <iwakeh> or, should they stay fixed?
15:12:58 <karsten> maybe, but not sure.
15:13:08 <karsten> I'm mostly thinking of tasks that take less than a week to complete.
15:13:23 <iwakeh> ah, ok.
15:13:23 <karsten> and the reason for not making progress is being busy doing other tasks.
15:13:40 <isabela> (but even if is less than a week points should reflect that)
15:14:02 <irl> what is 1 point?
15:14:03 <karsten> yes, I could see how points could help us, in addition to the assignment part.
15:14:05 <isabela> (ideally tasks are break down)
15:14:19 <isabela> irl: that is decided by the team
15:14:28 <isabela> so capacity calculation is like this
15:15:18 <isabela> the team has to think how much in a week a person is actually doing code for a task? (because a person has other stuff too, they dont code all the hours they are working, like they are also doing code review for others)
15:15:24 <isabela> at network team when we did it
15:15:41 <isabela> we decided taht is actually something around 3 days out of the 5 days of the week that someone is working on a task
15:16:23 <isabela> then we created a scale like 1 point == 1 day of work (let me find our scale)
15:16:41 <irl> so 3 points would be a week?
15:17:21 <isabela> https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/org/teams/NetworkTeam/ReleaseGuidelines#TeamCapacity
15:17:35 <isabela> irl: you do the values that makes sense for you
15:17:45 <isabela> or for the team
15:17:47 <irl> does trac support fractions?
15:17:49 <isabela> dont need to copy network team
15:17:52 <isabela> no :(
15:18:04 <karsten> hmm? you cannot put in 0.1?
15:18:10 <isabela> i mean
15:18:12 <isabela> sorry
15:18:14 <iwakeh> irl: we could use percentages instead.
15:18:34 <irl> just thinking a lot of the relay search and metrics-bot bugs probably will take ~30 mins
15:18:53 <iwakeh> small tasks should be bulk estimated.
15:18:56 <karsten> using the same scale as other teams might have advantages.
15:18:58 <isabela> what trac wont give you is burndown chart - so the calculation to see if you going above the capacity (total of points one should have for a month or week)
15:19:05 <iwakeh> otherwise this takes longer than the work itself.
15:20:01 <karsten> anyway,
15:20:06 <karsten> moving on?
15:20:07 <isabela> also, for you to train your estimations over time, you should have 'estimated points' and 'real points' (how long it actually took to do the task to see if they match)
15:21:20 <irl> like machine learning for humans
15:21:33 <isabela> yes
15:21:33 <karsten> this points business sounds useful, no doubt. I'm just a bit worried that it will not help us right where we are now and make things even worse by focusing on process rather than on actual work.
15:22:01 <irl> ok, i understand how they would work now, but we can move on
15:22:07 <isabela> you could start by just looking at your roadmap every week
15:22:25 <karsten> yes. we should do that. making a note.
15:22:31 <isabela> but anw :) dont want to hold the discussion
15:22:49 <karsten> on next week's agenda. :)
15:22:59 <karsten> we have more ideas:
15:23:00 <karsten> 6) add new people to the team, possibly contractors for specific tasks (web design, technical writing), not necessarily metrics developers (karsten)
15:23:24 <karsten> so, I think adding a new metrics developer won't make us happy now.
15:23:25 <isabela> is webdesign, design, or front end coding?
15:23:31 <irl> do you have ideas for specific things these people would do?
15:23:35 <karsten> regardless of whether there's money available, which I don't know.
15:24:00 <karsten> it's just a suggestion. something that we could do ourselves if we had to, but that we can do faster if we give away some of the work.
15:24:15 <karsten> for example, for sponsor 13 we need to produce a lot of english text.
15:24:38 <karsten> and we can write english text, but we're not excellent at it.
15:24:47 <karsten> hehe, sorry, irl, excluding you.
15:24:50 <karsten> hehehe
15:25:00 <isabela> gotcha
15:25:07 <irl> hehe, i'm not that great at it either, considering we americanize and do oxford commas
15:25:08 <karsten> this is the documentation work that iwakeh and I said we'd do.
15:25:09 <isabela> so the team should come up with headcount
15:25:33 <isabela> how many ppl for what - and have it listed in priority order 'must have' - 'nice to have but we can wait'
15:25:49 <isabela> so tor can plan for it
15:25:51 <isabela> for the fund etc
15:25:58 <irl> in debian, the translation team has english translators that translate bad english to good english
15:26:02 <irl> do we have that?
15:26:16 <karsten> isabela: makes sense
15:26:20 <irl> (they also make sure it uses simple language for translators)
15:26:23 <karsten> irl: that sounds very useful.
15:26:43 <isabela> karsten: next thursday/frida (25/26) we are having a grant/fund meeting
15:26:49 <isabela> not to rush
15:26:54 <karsten> oh, good to know.
15:27:07 <isabela> but if we have that by then we can start making plans for it
15:27:10 <isabela> right away
15:27:51 <isabela> yeah, we should have a 'headcount call' for team leads every start of year
15:27:55 <karsten> another thing is what teor used for one of the community documents.
15:28:03 <karsten> some tool to check complexity of the text.
15:28:04 <isabela> i remember i did that once (2016 i think)
15:28:25 <karsten> yes, I vaguely remember, too.
15:28:50 <karsten> so, irl, we could ask the community team about translators.
15:28:57 <karsten> like, colin might have ideas.
15:29:04 <karsten> translation coordinator.
15:29:07 <irl> that sounds good
15:29:27 <irl> for debian it's the l10n-english team, and it's just a mailing list, i don't know how we talk to our translators though
15:29:56 <karsten> yes, that's something that colin would know.
15:30:13 <karsten> a few years ago I asked a friendly volunteer to review my text for the metrics website.
15:30:19 <karsten> rewritten text.
15:30:22 <karsten> that was really useful.
15:30:37 <karsten> so, moving on?
15:30:39 <irl> ok
15:30:43 <iwakeh> fine
15:30:45 <karsten> 7) evaluate whether we could get an extension for Sponsor 13 (the current deadline is September 2018? yes.) (karsten)
15:30:54 <karsten> this is mostly there to have a complete list.
15:31:03 <karsten> I'd rather not want to do this yet.
15:31:12 <karsten> but I thought I'd add it for completeness.
15:31:29 <isabela> hmm
15:31:33 <iwakeh> shouldn't be necessary.
15:31:35 <isabela> sorry got distracted
15:31:40 <isabela> but for the translation coordinator
15:31:46 <isabela> yes, you should go to colin for that
15:31:50 <karsten> ok.
15:31:54 <isabela> like colin should do this for every team at tor
15:32:05 <isabela> not should
15:32:08 <isabela> he is doing
15:32:09 <isabela> hehe
15:32:16 <isabela> you the ones that should use his help :P
15:32:25 <karsten> okay, we'll talk to him.
15:32:29 <isabela> :)
15:32:49 <irl> what are the consequences if we have to extend sponsor13?
15:33:01 <isabela> also, if its just english review
15:33:05 <karsten> same money, but distributed over more time.
15:33:06 <isabela> maybe t0mmy can help too
15:33:09 <karsten> ideally.
15:33:15 <karsten> ah, good idea.
15:33:37 <isabela> extending sponsor13 is normally an easy thing to do
15:34:21 <isabela> the thing is that sponsor13 only pay us for when a deliverable is done so that means moving dates we estimated we would have certain money around
15:34:32 <karsten> yes.
15:34:36 <isabela> but
15:34:46 <isabela> sponsor13 is not crazy amount of money either
15:35:17 <isabela> so i would not worry too much on that front
15:35:18 <karsten> I mean, in this case we would produce value while postponing this work.
15:35:29 <iwakeh> good to know.
15:35:37 <isabela> i would worry more on having a right estimation of how long to extend it for
15:35:45 <isabela> and presenting a good reason why to
15:35:46 <isabela> :)
15:35:49 <karsten> for example, by enhancing onionoo we're helping folks make the tor network better.
15:35:56 <isabela> yes
15:36:05 <iwakeh> changes in the network require work from metrics.
15:36:12 <karsten> also that.
15:36:20 <isabela> yes
15:36:33 <karsten> okay, let's try not to do 7.
15:36:36 <isabela> that is good stuff to explain to them on why we are asking it for
15:36:42 <karsten> true.
15:36:50 <isabela> which ibelieve they will be fine with it too
15:37:01 <isabela> they are very easy, i have done it other times and is not crazy process
15:37:06 <karsten> okay.
15:37:20 <isabela> just need to make sure too the estimation you are asking for is correct
15:37:20 <karsten> moving on to 8.
15:37:23 <karsten> 8) have a process to provision compute resources for quick hacks that can be done properly later (e.g. some of the bwauth things)
15:37:30 <isabela> to avoid getting on the case where you ask for a second oen
15:37:32 * isabela done!
15:37:34 <isabela> hehe
15:37:39 <karsten> irl: we do have an ec2 account that I could sign you up for.
15:37:42 <karsten> isabela: hehe, noted.
15:37:46 <iwakeh> 8 is part of 3 actually
15:37:52 <irl> ah, that would be good
15:38:08 <karsten> I think in 8, irl is asking for actual resources.
15:38:25 <iwakeh> oh, then 8 is standalone ;-)
15:38:26 <irl> i had to double the size of the digital ocean droplet for metrics-bot so that's currently $10 USD/month instead of $5
15:38:30 <karsten> iwakeh: do you have access to the ec2 account?
15:38:40 <iwakeh> not that I'm aware of.
15:38:49 <irl> and then finding a place to run cron jobs and generate output for test metrics is tricky
15:38:50 <karsten> ah, ec2 is mostly for one-off analyses.
15:39:08 <irl> i don't mean to move metrics-bot there, we want that on tpo later
15:39:14 <karsten> ok!
15:39:22 <irl> but to host things like the fastly bwauth maps
15:39:25 <karsten> I'll sign you up for ec2 then.
15:39:58 <irl> in the longer term we'd want that in onionoo but until then it just needs a quick hack to sit somewhere and run
15:40:04 <karsten> perdulce
15:40:12 <karsten> or, iranicum.
15:40:17 <karsten> (for the running part)
15:40:25 <karsten> or a new VM that we can ask for.
15:40:39 <karsten> ec2 is for processing large amounts of data that we don't have a free machine for.
15:40:47 <irl> so it looks like there's lots of options, do we have some docs for this?
15:40:47 <karsten> or for running simulations.
15:40:52 <karsten> not really.
15:40:55 <karsten> now you know. :)
15:41:20 <irl> who do i ask about VMs?
15:41:38 <karsten> you'd create a trac ticket in the sysadmin component and ask for it.
15:41:50 <irl> ok, this seems like a good process
15:41:51 <karsten> or maybe talk to weasel or qbi first.
15:41:55 <karsten> and then create the ticket.
15:41:58 <karsten> whatever you prefer.
15:42:09 <karsten> last item?
15:42:12 <irl> ok
15:42:15 <karsten> 9) gsoc/outreachy (in my experience, this can either reduce workload or massively increase workload)
15:42:34 <karsten> that also sounds like something we should be doing longer-term, not exactly now.
15:42:41 <iwakeh> indeed.
15:42:57 <irl> i was a gsoc mentor for debian 3 times. two of those three we got useful output. one of those times we really did not and i ended up doing about half my normal output.
15:43:30 <karsten> sounds familiar.
15:43:49 <irl> the idea would be "make a prototype of this idea we have" as opposed to "make a thing we can put into production when it's done"
15:43:50 <karsten> but, we might do it in the future.
15:43:57 <karsten> right.
15:44:11 <iwakeh> true.
15:44:33 <karsten> okay, we're way over time.
15:44:42 <iwakeh> yep.
15:44:43 <karsten> shall we talk about rome next week?
15:45:02 <irl> ok
15:45:07 <iwakeh> yes, maybe add ideas to the meeting pad until then?
15:45:20 <karsten> sure.
15:45:30 <karsten> just one question: you're planning to come to rome, right?
15:45:50 <iwakeh> sure, if possible.
15:46:02 * irl has emailed karsten some questions for this, but yes planning to go
15:46:05 <karsten> and if you are, please consider which dates you can come for.
15:46:21 <karsten> okay. let's talk more about this via email or next week.
15:46:25 <irl> ok
15:46:30 <iwakeh> fine
15:46:42 <karsten> great! tough meeting, but I think we have some good ideas now.
15:46:47 <isabela> :)
15:46:57 <karsten> thanks, isabela, for dropping by. :)
15:47:11 <isabela> np o/ ping me if you need anything
15:47:18 <karsten> will do!
15:47:26 <isabela> and i will be pinging you all in feb to prepare for rome roadmap (all teams)
15:47:26 <karsten> thanks, irl and iwakeh! bye, everyone!
15:47:30 <iwakeh> thanks & bye, bye.
15:47:32 <karsten> yes, please do.
15:47:35 <irl> bye!
15:47:38 <karsten> #endmeeting