17:59:10 <nickm> #startmeeting weekly network team meeting, 20 Feb
17:59:10 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Feb 20 17:59:10 2018 UTC.  The chair is nickm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:59:10 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:59:15 <asn> hello :)
17:59:22 <nickm> The famous pad: https://pad.riseup.net/p/3Puiko6qUCLr
17:59:24 <dgoulet> hi
17:59:29 <catalyst> hi! i might vanish as my VM gets rebooted soon
17:59:35 <nickm> ok
17:59:43 <ahf> hey!
18:00:42 <nickm> I don't see too much in boldface this week.
18:01:15 * asn reads updates
18:02:09 <ahf> i moved my two to discussion - i don't know if that was right or wrong
18:02:51 <isis> o/
18:03:09 <nickm> fine with me
18:03:11 <nickm> isabela: ping?
18:03:30 * isabela here
18:03:35 <isabela> sorry i am on the phone
18:03:38 <isabela> give me 3min!
18:04:05 * asn discussing with mike on pad :P
18:04:18 <ahf> internet relay pad
18:04:50 <nickm> reminds me of "talk"
18:04:57 <nickm> I wish more chat protocols let you see people type; that was fun
18:05:30 <ahf> like while they were writing the line? lol
18:05:45 <nickm> yeah, it was fun
18:05:48 <isis> we could switch to slack
18:05:53 <ahf> "damn you^W^Wi respectfully disagree :-)"
18:05:59 <isis> haha
18:06:21 <sysrqb> that was the whole innovation with Google^WApache Wave, right?
18:07:31 <ahf> :-S
18:07:49 * isabela is here
18:08:04 <nickm> hihi
18:08:26 <ahf> isabela: nice with network test emails, i'll keep a look out for incoming updates this week
18:08:37 <isabela> tx!
18:08:41 <nickm> mikeperry, asn: Do you think you're going to arrive at a decision wrt guardfraction, or should we broaden the list of people who are disussing it?
18:09:17 <asn> probs not during this meeting
18:09:23 <asn> but i can see mike's point
18:10:05 <nickm> ok. I can see yours too though: unless we have a plan to actually finish guardfractoin, its odds are poor
18:10:35 <nickm> but I'm okay with anything the two of you decide
18:10:46 <asn> ack
18:10:59 <ahf> asn: for the NS code you will need the same kind of mechanism for the NS "plug-ins" as we use for PT's right? so you'd be good to chat with also about the windows thing i'm playing a bit around with to be able to get better communication between the plug-ins and tor
18:11:12 <mikeperry> it seems like the painful piece of guardfraction is the external script.. that can always be replaced or rewritten while we use the same code in tor-core. I also think that asn's fixes in #16255 are likely to work, but we just have no mechanism to test them.
18:11:14 <asn> ahf: yes we could talk about that
18:11:26 <mikeperry> we are likely to build such a mechanism eventually, and then fixing #16255 will become much easier
18:11:42 <asn> ahf: perhaps thursday or friday
18:12:03 <ahf> works for me, i only look at this during the weekend, so thursday/friday is perfect
18:12:24 <asn> mikeperry: the external script does not really need rewriting IIUC. it's just that people have been running it for ages without the feature being used.
18:13:10 <asn> and next time we tell them to run a script, it better be good, or they will laugh at our face
18:13:42 <nickm> are we ready to kick off discussions?
18:13:47 <nickm> if so, I think isabela would like to start
18:13:51 <asn> let's
18:13:51 <nickm> isabela: (am I right?)
18:13:59 <isabela> sure i can do that
18:14:02 <isabela> if we are ready
18:14:15 <nickm> let's go for it!
18:14:18 <isabela> i want to talk about this: https://pad.riseup.net/p/38VbTZUIzG4X
18:14:23 <isabela> is an exercise
18:14:30 <isabela> i emailed it to the list and also added the link to the pad
18:14:40 <isabela> so others can see it too :) (who are not here)
18:15:00 <isabela> thanks everyone for helping with the work areas list
18:15:28 <isabela> i moved them to a spreadsheet and I am asking for people to vote on top 5 areas tor network should have as a priority
18:15:36 <isabela> there are detailed instructions on the pad
18:16:03 <isabela> on how i organized the 'final' list of areas, how to vote, till when to vote :) and how this will be used
18:16:18 <isabela> let me know if you have questions
18:16:21 <nickm> so, IIUC the idea is to treat this like one of those exercises where you get sticky labels, and vote for your favorite post-it notes
18:16:35 <nickm> isabela: is this for long-term focus or near-term focus?
18:16:42 <isabela> ok
18:16:44 <nickm> that is, should we vote for "what is most important for the team to do this year"
18:16:50 <isabela> this is not about 'what is your favorite thing'
18:16:51 <nickm> or "what is most important for the team to do in general"
18:17:00 <isabela> this is about 'what are the priorities for tor network'
18:17:07 <isabela> that you feel right now
18:17:15 <ahf> and what will the result of these votes be? it will be what the grant writers will try to get funding for?
18:17:22 <isabela> how we will fix those (if in the short or long term (2019-2021) is a another step
18:17:51 <isabela> ahf: no
18:17:59 <isabela> ahf: will be used as a data point for our plannings
18:18:10 <ahf> ok!  so it's a here and now picture
18:18:13 <ahf> cool
18:18:25 <isabela> that is why i am saying to just think of what you consider priority, because is broken, because has no one developing it, because we need to grow
18:18:30 <isabela> whatever is the reason
18:18:34 <ahf> yep
18:18:41 <Samdney> isis: when will be this proposal meetings?
18:18:42 <isabela> if we will fix it on the 6 months planning or the 2019-2021 is another question
18:19:01 <isabela> we will use this as data points for both plannings
18:19:40 <isis> Samdney: i forget! sorry, it's somewhere in the scrollback of #tor-dev from last friday
18:20:21 <isis> it might be later this afternoon, i think
18:20:39 <nickm> ok, I tried to write some stuff, but I'll change my mind over the next few days :)
18:20:54 <isabela> hehehe
18:21:06 <asn> i'd like to think more so im not gonna put stuff now
18:21:08 <isabela> is cool, till friday folks can play with it
18:21:20 <ahf> cool
18:21:24 <isabela> friday it will freeze tho so we can actually use it
18:21:45 <isabela> all this is preparation for our plannings
18:22:13 <nickm> this is one of several "everybody please do X" items for this week
18:22:19 <nickm> other "everybody please do X" items are:
18:22:26 <nickm> help marking essential 033 things with 033-must
18:22:43 <nickm> please pick up a ticket to review : review-group-33 is now a thing.
18:23:04 <nickm> what else?
18:23:24 <asn> maybe: please fill out the updated subsystem maintainer spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ufrun1khEo5Cwd6OwngERn829wU3W3eskdrriaYfUBQ/edit#gid=1974867547
18:23:29 <isabela> yes!
18:23:33 <isabela> please do that too
18:23:47 <isabela> all this will help us with organizing
18:23:50 <isis> i see two tickets left with needs_review in review-group-32: #24456 #24854
18:24:00 <asn> #24456 is in rg33 too
18:24:10 <nickm> mikeperry has been looking at #24456
18:24:25 <ahf> maybe: also remember to take team rotation tasks :-)
18:24:26 <nickm> teor is on #24854; I'll ask what's up with that tonight
18:24:37 <isis> ok, i'll remove the old tag gr32 then?
18:24:50 <isis> ok, i'll just leave both alone for now
18:25:09 <asn> rg33 has less elements than people in our team
18:25:17 <asn> i took #17945 anyhow
18:26:22 <nickm> oh also, please include my patches for TROVE-2018-001, as sent to the network-team-security list.  I don't know if anyone but me has reviewed those.
18:26:33 <nickm> somebody should give feedback; I'm hoping to put out a release on Monday or Wednesday next week
18:26:58 <asn> should i put #25074 in rg33?
18:27:05 <nickm> yes please
18:27:07 <asn> ack
18:28:09 <nickm> shall we move on to other discussion stuff?
18:28:28 <asn> sure
18:28:33 * ahf nods
18:29:15 <nickm> ok. next topic I see is from me.  I think I already mentioned all of my stuff though.
18:29:38 <nickm> asn wants to bring everybody's attention to the subsystem maintainer spreadsheet: Please add data!
18:29:41 <nickm> asn: anything else?
18:29:46 <asn> nope that's good
18:29:49 <asn> thanks nickm <3
18:30:47 <nickm> isis: we need a strategy for rust dependencies.  Can you write up a quick document (wiki page, text file, whatever) on how we should do that?  Then let's follow the policy you invent and see how it goes and amend it as needed
18:30:52 <nickm> (unless there are other volunteers)
18:31:57 <nickm> or I could try to make up a procedure from my rust-ignorant perspective :)
18:32:17 <nickm> isis: also, could you mention the meeting times for the proposal meetings on the pad too?
18:32:28 <nickm> (or anybody who knows)
18:32:43 <nickm> prop#245 and prop#282 (and whomever else would like to join)
18:33:02 <nickm> I don't know when those are :)
18:33:21 <nickm> have I missed any topics from this week?
18:33:43 <ahf> i added one about whether we can remove the nmake files in tor.git
18:34:20 <nickm> ahf: ah!
18:34:26 <nickm> I don't know.  I don't think they'd be missed.
18:34:43 <nickm> wait
18:34:48 <ahf> ok, i'll create a bug and then we can decide to remove them with the normal review process
18:34:53 <nickm> from time to time, I see people reporting bugs when Tor is built with MSVC
18:34:53 <ahf> ok!
18:35:03 <ahf> many of them looks like they haven't been touched in a long while
18:35:11 <ahf> the one in src/or was in 2016 i think
18:35:14 <nickm> I don't know if they're fixing up the nmake files, or if they're making their own project files
18:35:42 <ahf> maybe create a ticket and let it stay for a bit and see if anybody objects?
18:35:44 <catalyst> nickm: i think the last i saw scheduling those proposal discussions was a doodle poll from isis (which only isis and teor have responded on)
18:37:16 <isis> nickm: for rust stuff, sure, i can make something up? the digest crate only contains traits, which is why i think it's okay to use, since it's just about being compatible with other things
18:37:58 <isis> catalyst: yeah, i said something to teor on friday in #tor-dev suggesting a time, but now i have to go look for what i said
18:38:20 <nickm> isis: yeah, please make something up!  I figur we should have some process other than asking at the meeting...
18:38:58 <nickm> trait-only crates seem like an easy call
18:39:31 <isis> ok! will add to the docs
18:39:56 <isis> the prop#245 and prop#282 meeting is at 23:00 UTC today
18:40:28 <nickm> is that right before the patch party? or after? or at?
18:40:33 <nickm> sorry, can't arithmetic
18:41:38 <catalyst> that looks like patch party time to me
18:41:42 <nickm> ok
18:41:43 <ahf> is our dates for the may hackfest final? so now should be OK to write to travel@ with a price estimate of flight tickets?
18:42:35 <nickm> I think so, but I'm not organizing it :/
18:43:01 <isabela> i am helping teor and dgoulet
18:43:12 <dgoulet> waiting on Jon to book the hotel
18:43:24 <isabela> i need to double check on it because i think our costs for seattle might have been wrong
18:43:30 <isabela> and might end up higher not sure
18:43:57 <isabela> armadev mentioned something to me but i really dont remembre now if was him looking or jon looking
18:44:04 <isabela> or both looking
18:44:13 <ahf> ok, i will wait with all of that then
18:44:27 <isabela> i will ping the thread w jon
18:45:23 <nickm> catalyst, isis: okay. I will try to be there at 2300 UTC. I might have some distractions tonight but I think i can do it :)
18:45:24 <isabela> the dates are right
18:45:37 <isabela> but the location might change to portland depending on hotel prices
18:45:41 <isabela> ahf: i think
18:45:56 <isabela> so airplane tickets might be around the same?
18:46:06 <isabela> might be ok to email travel if you want to
18:46:52 <ahf> yeah, i could send an estimate and get an ok now, should be the same for that period
18:47:04 <isabela> yep
18:47:50 <nickm> ok. anything else for this week?
18:48:32 <nickm> if not, then I'll be seeing you all online!
18:49:08 <asn> thanks for the meeting! :)
18:49:21 <isabela> \o/
18:49:24 <nickm> #endmeeting