13:58:30 <antonela> #startmeeting ux team meeting
13:58:30 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Oct  9 13:58:30 2018 UTC.  The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:58:30 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:58:42 <antonela> hi people!
13:58:46 <antonela> another ux meeting today :D
13:58:59 <pili> yay! :)
13:59:11 <antonela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/iXrnPQ78Ra9cD2t8baY1_j1HFiXQj0VRDxg5DLSkxGV
13:59:18 <antonela> meeting pad is there as always ^
13:59:37 <antonela> please, fill your updates and add items to the agenda so we can talk about them
14:01:54 <antonela> im still keeping the old months roadmap there because there are some items that need status
14:02:07 <antonela> nyinz, emmapeel: you around?
14:02:36 <emmapeel> o/
14:02:43 <antonela> holaa
14:02:48 <pili> should we also invite gaba briefly?
14:03:04 * emmapeel is drooling over the illos at https://tor.derechosdigitales.org/
14:03:05 <antonela> oh yes
14:03:10 <pili> (for the gettor discussion)
14:03:18 <antonela> emmapeel good stuff!
14:03:49 <antonela> okey, lets start
14:04:24 <antonela> gaba, pili the roadmap is there, there are some items that should be added, nothing should be removed, so please, take a look over this week and let me know if i'm missing anything
14:04:45 <pili> yup, will do
14:05:15 <antonela> people of the team, check were your name is there and feel free to add yourself to tasks you are interested on!
14:05:31 <antonela> *where
14:06:56 <antonela> gaba, for gettor item, do we have a deadline? should i include it for Q418 or Q119?
14:07:08 <antonela> i know we talked about it but i don't remember
14:07:22 <pili> antonela: I have a sync with gaba later on today, I'll check in with her on this
14:07:30 <antonela> perfect! thanks a lot!
14:07:39 <pili> (and possibly check my notes from mex also... )
14:07:50 <antonela> great, feel free to add/move things there
14:07:52 <antonela> cool, lets move to discussion items?
14:07:55 <antonela> hiro, you are up
14:08:32 <hiro> ok so the one item I put in the agenda for today is the tor secure web docs
14:08:36 <hiro> and where should this go
14:09:22 <antonela> secure web docs is a good name
14:09:31 <hiro> so first of all there were a few rather informal chats in cdmx about collecting documentation on how things work when using tor browser
14:09:41 <hiro> and how to make your website more tor browser and privacy friendly
14:09:59 <hiro> so some of these docs could quite naturally sits in the styleguide
14:10:13 <hiro> after all we have been thinking about these issues all along
14:10:29 <hiro> like how does a drop down works when js is disable... and so on
14:10:41 <hiro> s/works/work
14:10:54 <hiro> other things could be more general and could go to the dev portal
14:11:19 <hiro> maybe a good way to start this is with a trac ticket + collecting inf in the wiki
14:11:33 <hiro> then moving stuff temporarly to the styleguide
14:11:35 <emmapeel> (or to the spaghetti repo)
14:11:39 <hiro> like best practices
14:11:48 <antonela> yes, we could discuss the content in some trac ticket or wiki entry and once the content is done move it to the styleguide
14:11:50 <antonela> yes yes
14:11:57 <hiro> yes emmapeel the spaghetti repo is a good place but I think we (as in tor community) should own this
14:12:03 <hiro> it's like the web docs from mozilla
14:12:07 <pili> hiro: I think it depends on what format we want for this... for example if we're going to go the developer.mozilla.org route, it could be nice to have it as a series of articles/blog posts, but not sure if that's the overall idea for our own developer.torproject.org
14:12:29 <pili> then we can get others to contribute articles also... not sure if that's something our community tends to run with... :)
14:12:56 <emmapeel> maybe it can be part of the community portal_? like> tor for web developers / tor for sysadmins
14:13:05 <hiro> so developer.m.o is a django app that spawn a wiki...
14:13:22 <pili> I guess if it's more of a set of guidelines maybe it doesn't make as much sense to do it as a set of articles
14:13:22 <hiro> so yeah anyone can register there
14:14:44 <nyinz> hi there!
14:14:45 <pili> emmapeel: yes, I also thought about the community portal although there seems to be a lot of content there already :)
14:15:11 <pili> maybe community just covers too much: developers, users, translators, volunteers... :)
14:15:21 <pili> (I'm probably forgetting some people)
14:16:08 <hiro> the thing is the community portal isn't live already and the styleguide is
14:16:09 <pili> but maybe let's start with a ticket and wiki first like hiro said and then we can find a place for it?
14:16:38 <hiro> so me and antonela were chatting about maybe having a best practices section in the styleguide for the time being
14:16:44 <antonela> yes
14:17:12 <hiro> but sure best to start with a ticket and some content in the wiki and then move it
14:17:23 <antonela> and i think is cool if we invite more people to look into this
14:17:29 <slacktopus> <hellais> hello
14:17:34 <hiro> I also see this as a separated portal if there is enough juicy content
14:17:35 <antonela> i remember securedrop folks, eff folks
14:17:36 <hiro> hello hellais
14:18:00 <hiro> yes eff folks already have some documentation, riseup too, but it is scattered over many different places
14:18:03 <antonela> hi art
14:18:34 <antonela> hiro: yep
14:19:19 <slacktopus> <hellais> (I am adding some OONI related notes to the pad)
14:19:27 <hiro> well if that's ok for everyone I will create a ticket and everyone is invited to collaborate there
14:19:28 <antonela> sure, go for it
14:19:34 <antonela> hiro, that is a great first step
14:19:37 <antonela> thanks!
14:19:39 <pili> hiro:+1
14:19:40 <emmapeel> cool hiro
14:20:01 <antonela> another thing that i would like to talk about is github
14:20:08 <antonela> what we will do, what other teams will do
14:20:22 <antonela> maybe is a pm thing, but i just want to put it over the table
14:20:42 * hiro throws the ball to pili :P
14:20:53 <emmapeel> i never liked it, but since it is from microsoft i just hate it now
14:20:56 <emmapeel> >D
14:21:08 <pili> sure, I think it would be good to have a consistent approach across teams...
14:21:20 <antonela> hiro has this sync between trac and github almost working and maybe at some point we must have open repos for the website and an easy way for people to report issues
14:21:31 <antonela> and by easy i mean friendly
14:21:41 <pili> I like github, but maybe there are better alternatives, such as gitlab
14:21:46 <antonela> ha
14:21:58 <hiro> all the peeps are on github tho
14:22:02 <antonela> yes, we used to have gitlab, but the network team is using github and idk
14:22:03 <pili> I think the main thing with github is that it has a great community
14:22:12 <pili> as hiro just said ;)
14:23:10 <antonela> okey, pili and gaba meeting already have items in the agenda :D
14:23:13 <hiro> so .. in my wildest dreams I'd like our issues to look like this one day: https://github.com/freedomofpress/securedrop/issues/3856
14:23:22 <pili> well, what's the feeling in the ux team about github atm? I guess most people are ok with it apart from emmapeel ? ;)
14:23:42 <emmapeel> everybody can have repos there, but we are discussing about moving the tickets, right?
14:24:08 <emmapeel> there or anywhere  i mean...
14:24:18 <hiro> emmapeel: not moving.. just copying
14:24:20 <slacktopus> <hellais> At OONI we use github extensively and for getting feedback and contributions from the community it’s a really good tool.
14:24:31 <hiro> in a way that people can see what's going on easily
14:24:50 <antonela> yes please
14:24:58 <slacktopus> <hellais> In this context by community I mean that portion of it which is fairly tech savy, but not as deeply involved to know about the proper way of using things like trac
14:24:58 <hiro> yes hellais I really dig how ooni uses github
14:25:09 <hiro> also: https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues
14:25:22 <emmapeel> i see a difference between gitlab/github and trac, for sure. but i rather have a self hosted gitlab instance...
14:25:29 <emmapeel> but anyway i am not blocking
14:26:02 <pili> hellais: do you use trac at all? if so it would be good if you have some documents about your workflow for managing both? or maybe that's more of a question for the network team
14:26:44 <emmapeel> i like in gitlab/github how people can submit patches without knowing git, for example, which is good for l10n :D
14:26:44 <hiro> emmapeel the idea is that we can keep using trac and git on our way, but if people want to have a pick of what's available for them, they will find it easily in github
14:27:02 <slacktopus> <hellais> pili: we don’t use trac at all
14:27:18 <pili> ok... so that's a question for the network team then ;)
14:27:35 <slacktopus> <hellais> The only times we use it is when we need to discuss or interact with issues that are tracked on trac
14:27:52 * antonela writes the pad
14:27:58 <slacktopus> <hellais> There was a time, long ago, when the two, github and trac, sort-of co-existed, but it became too complex to manage
14:27:58 <hiro> pili a while ago we had a survey and all and the result, summarised, is that people in tor love trac
14:28:08 <emmapeel> hellais> do you have a way of linking between trac and github?
14:28:27 <antonela> emmapeel: yes, that is possible
14:28:29 <pili> hiro: seriously?!? :D that's not necessarily what I heard... :)
14:28:40 <slacktopus> <hellais> emmapeel: you paste the link of the ticket inside of github and the link of the issue in trac :P
14:28:47 <hiro> we can have the survey again
14:29:09 <hiro> emmapeel I have a sync w huginn
14:29:23 <antonela> pili, you should sync with isabela about it and let me know what we can do
14:29:31 <pili> antonela: sounds good
14:29:37 <antonela> cool
14:29:45 <antonela> next item - How to report user feedback to devs?
14:29:48 <slacktopus> <hellais> My understanding is that the network team mostly uses github for code review, but not for issue tracking
14:30:09 <antonela> we have been talking briefly about that yesterday during the tor browser meeting
14:30:14 <antonela> hellais: yes, CI also
14:30:22 <slacktopus> <hellais> right
14:30:26 <hiro> we also started this a few weeks ago: https://storm.torproject.org/shared/njJA2mcEhhG-03FgM576-8lJ6UpNkTFus01WnZKXmks
14:30:32 <emmapeel> i love reviewing in gitlab/github! also i like the gitlabCI stuff with the pretty console videos
14:31:11 <hiro> that document isn't finished because we were waiting for the pms to come in
14:32:04 <hiro> so please feel free to break it apart :D
14:32:05 <pili> hiro: cool, so here the idea is that c wou
14:32:19 <pili> volunteers would submit code patches?
14:32:28 <hiro> yes
14:32:35 <hiro> we have a few doing that
14:33:20 <pili> ok, so far we then have the following usecases for github: issue reporting, merging patches and code reviews, any others? (sorry antonela, I know you were trying to move on to the next item...)
14:33:28 <emmapeel> i test the translations of tails website with gitlabci https://0xacab.org/emmapeel/tails/pipelines?scope=branches&page=1
14:33:54 <hiro> we could have lektor building on github with travisci
14:34:06 <emmapeel> yes, maybe outsource some CI
14:34:15 <emmapeel> specially maybe external contributors
14:34:17 <hiro> that would help for cases like the newsletter for example
14:34:24 <hiro> yes emmapeel that too
14:34:27 <antonela> pili: is ok, we have been talking about this for months, and since pms are here maybe we can unblock it
14:34:53 <antonela> external contributors is a critical +1 for any of those options that are not trac
14:34:58 <hiro> so when steph wants to send a newsletter she passes me the html and txt files.. this way she could copy and paste them on github and create a merge request
14:35:05 <pili> ok, so CI workflows also, great
14:35:09 <pili> hiro:+1
14:35:10 <slacktopus> <hellais> > we could have lektor building on github with travisci  This is basically how we build the OONI website: https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-web/blob/master/.travis.yml
14:35:36 <hiro> thanks hellais
14:35:42 <emmapeel> neat!
14:35:46 <pili> ok, I think I have enough to run with, happy to move on to the next item if everyone else is :)
14:35:59 <hiro> the build would be just a preview for volunteer to see how does it look-like tho
14:36:08 <hiro> the actual build would still happen via jenkins
14:36:14 <antonela> yes
14:36:15 <hiro> so that it gets copied to the www-rotation
14:36:56 <emmapeel> hiro: good point!
14:37:10 * hiro has to leave this meeting a lil earlier
14:37:11 <slacktopus> <hellais> We also have a PR hook so that editors can look at a preview of the content before it goes into production. ex: https://github.com/TheTorProject/ooni-web/pull/233> & <https://deploy-preview-233--ooni.netlify.com/
14:37:45 <hiro> see you all in a bit - will check the backlog
14:37:54 <antonela> \o
14:38:09 <antonela> so
14:38:11 <slacktopus> <hellais> We still have one step of the website deployment that has to happen manually because of policies on the staticiforme.tpo host
14:39:17 <antonela> oka -- pili and gaba will work on trac/github/gitlab love hate relationship
14:39:25 <antonela> can we move to user issues?
14:39:29 <pili> antonela:+1
14:40:08 <emmapeel> 14:32 <+antonela> next item - How to report user feedback to devs?
14:40:18 <antonela> we have been talking briefly about how to incorporate user feedback into our development workflow yesterday during the tor browser meeting
14:40:57 <antonela> we have a lot of user testing that needs reports and those reports should become actionable tasks/items in someway
14:40:59 <antonela> how we can do that?
14:41:14 <emmapeel> trac?
14:41:37 <antonela> now, yes
14:42:46 <pili> antonela: do we have these reports already or is it a case of agreeing on a standard format that then makes it easier to extract tasks from?
14:43:23 <antonela> nyinz has some reports, some highlights of those reports could become tasks
14:43:30 <antonela> and i'm not sure how we can do that
14:43:36 <antonela> could you pili help us on that?
14:44:02 <pili> yup, send them over ;) nyinz
14:44:14 <pili> I can at least start reviewing what we have
14:44:22 <nyinz> sure
14:44:33 <antonela> great
14:45:05 <antonela> on the other hand, we have wayward reports which are pretty cool because she is looking into trac and checking if tickets exists and what is the progress of them
14:45:10 <antonela> so, that part is covered i think
14:45:35 <pili> yup, I need to sync with wayward on this also
14:46:06 <antonela> colio
14:46:19 <antonela> next one? and we have 10 minutes
14:46:46 <antonela> pili, S19 report is yours?
14:46:50 <pili> yup
14:47:23 <pili> there was an email from Roger on the Sponsor19 reports and there's an item that is between sysrqb arthuredelstein and antonela :)
14:47:37 <antonela> yes, but is not snowflake, is more about moat and bridges
14:47:40 <pili> I was wondering if there had been any discussion on this already between you guys
14:47:55 <antonela> not yet, i have a draft email about to go and i put you in cc there :)
14:48:02 <pili> and whether you had agreed who was going to take care of this
14:48:09 <pili> ok, great, I'll wait for that then :) antonela
14:48:14 <antonela> cool
14:48:28 <antonela> hellais: i already included ooni items into the roadmap
14:48:52 <slacktopus> <hellais> Is there a link for it?
14:48:55 <antonela> do you want to go deeper on which is needed on each release? that is cool, elio/you/me should add it into the roadmap
14:49:00 <antonela> https://storm.torproject.org/shared/nL9xk_-Ey6oba1wBhqiZo3O8knzOlLNRp3jHoKThBLV
14:49:25 <slacktopus> <hellais> Ah cool that is great!
14:49:34 <antonela> on big milestones we have ooni probe for Q418 and ooni explore for Q119
14:49:42 <antonela> is what my notes says
14:49:47 <slacktopus> <hellais> I just wanted to know: 1. What is the canonical link to the roadmap (DONE) 2. Know what is the procedure to update/edit some stuff on it
14:50:05 <slacktopus> <hellais> For example we discussed during our team meeting that we would like at some point do revamp/redesign our website
14:50:21 <slacktopus> <hellais> and we very much liked the work you did on the tor website and it would be great to have some help on that
14:50:49 <antonela> yolo way --  add a line in Q119 for the website so we can work on it
14:50:58 <antonela> better february maybe before IFF
14:51:00 <slacktopus> <hellais> This is not something that is urgent, but we would like to do it from the beginning in collaboration with the UX team, so it would be good to know when you have more spare cycles to add it there
14:51:04 <antonela> not sure when you want to release tho
14:51:13 <antonela> yes sure
14:51:45 <slacktopus> <hellais> Do you think putting it in February 2019 mentioning that is when it starts, is a good idea?
14:52:01 <antonela> when do you need to release?
14:52:25 <slacktopus> <hellais> I don’t think we will have any spare cycles to do the dev work before March 2019
14:52:47 <slacktopus> <hellais> So it will for sure not be launched before June/July 2019
14:52:58 <antonela> so good, we can work feb-mar on it
14:53:10 <slacktopus> <hellais> Excellent
14:53:13 <antonela> i cant work on that before it
14:53:15 <antonela> cool
14:53:22 <slacktopus> <hellais> Can I add it to the roadmap directly?
14:53:27 <antonela> ye sure
14:53:38 <slacktopus> <hellais> Is it useful if I put some more precise dates for the OONI related roadmap items?
14:53:46 <emmapeel> plz freeze the strings early so we can have more translations in time :D
14:53:55 <slacktopus> <hellais> Ex. we have more precise launch dates now for OONI Probe mobile and OONI Explorer
14:53:58 <antonela> yes it is
14:54:03 <antonela> if you have dates, put it there
14:54:18 <antonela> tb releases have dates and is extremely useful
14:54:40 <slacktopus> <hellais> emmapeel: for the mobile app we will upload strings on Nov 2nd
14:54:45 <slacktopus> <hellais> After that the stings will not change
14:55:11 <emmapeel> hellais> cheers!
14:55:17 <slacktopus> <hellais> We will also be circulating a private beta with translators on that day
14:55:32 <antonela> great
14:55:34 <slacktopus> <hellais> The public beta will be released on the 12th Nov
14:55:45 <emmapeel> if we can have some screenshots, that will increase the quality of translations inmensely
14:55:51 <slacktopus> <hellais> Anyways I will add this to the roadmap document
14:55:58 <slacktopus> <hellais> emmapeel: we can do that
14:56:03 <emmapeel> just give me the folder and i will do what i can :D
14:56:17 <antonela> awesome
14:56:20 <antonela> thanks emmaaa
14:56:43 <antonela> and arturo, if you are going to freeze by nov2, we should have a design review next week
14:57:27 <antonela> is elio around?
14:57:36 <antonela> okey, i'll send an email
14:58:51 <slacktopus> <hellais> Yes I agree
14:59:15 <antonela> va bene
14:59:25 <antonela> pili, will talk with you right after this meeting to talk about the docs
14:59:28 <slacktopus> <hellais> Even better if we do it this week, because we would like to freeze the UI by the end of this week
14:59:30 <antonela> i have ideas and i need your help with them :D
14:59:44 <antonela> im running this week, but friday morning could work
14:59:52 <slacktopus> <hellais> err: by 16th of October
15:00:14 <antonela> okey, next week works so
15:00:17 <pili> antonela: sounds good, I'm out thurs and friday but I can maybe make some time on friday morning
15:00:22 <slacktopus> <hellais> As in, it would be great if we could give mockups that are as close to the final product as possible, without any major UI changes
15:00:39 <antonela> yes, exactly, this is why i want to review them after the hot review session we did in mex
15:00:41 <slacktopus> <hellais> Yes beginning of next week also works actually
15:00:56 <antonela> cool, following up via email
15:01:00 <antonela> something else?
15:01:02 <antonela> we are on time!
15:01:02 <slacktopus> <hellais> Sounds good
15:01:04 <slacktopus> <hellais> Thanks a bunch!
15:01:08 <slacktopus> <hellais> That’s all I had
15:01:26 <antonela> great, thank you people! see you in the internetzzz
15:01:29 <antonela> #endmeeting