15:01:51 <gaba> #startmeeting sponsor 30 monthly checkin 2019-10-07
15:01:51 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Oct  7 15:01:51 2019 UTC.  The chair is gaba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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15:02:08 <gaba> we have the pad for the agenda here: https://pad.riseup.net/p/sponsor30-agenda-notes-Y1-keep
15:02:13 <antonela> hello!
15:02:58 <gaba> The idea for today is to agree on how we are going to coordinate work and start working.
15:03:29 <gaba> I added an agenda for what I think we need to discuss or be on the same page about.
15:03:40 <gaba> Can people please, review it?
15:04:08 <gaba> At the top of the pad there are a few documents I will use to track work. The timeline documetn is based on what we sent to the sponsor BUT we can change it
15:04:24 <ahf> yep
15:04:31 <gaba> In the timeline I also added info on which team is getting each objectivity and activity
15:04:35 <gaba> Please, review it
15:05:03 <gaba> For obj 2 and 3 we are going to track work in trac (for now) under a master ticket
15:05:22 <gaba> For obj 1 I still need to talk with sbs and hellais on how we are going to track work in github.
15:05:36 <slacktopus> <hellais> For OONI we are going to be tracking it using a dedicated project board which I linked in the pad
15:05:43 <gaba> thanks
15:05:50 <slacktopus> <hellais> It’s this one: https://github.com/orgs/ooni/projects/18
15:06:18 <slacktopus> <hellais> We also have agreed with @sbs that in light of the fact that I am going to be moving into becoming a more full time PM for OONI I will in fact be the main point of contact for the DRL anticensorship grant
15:06:19 <gaba> is everybody ok with this agenda and/or want to add anything else?
15:06:32 <gaba> oh! ok
15:06:39 <antonela> the agenda looks good for me gaba
15:06:53 <ahf> yep, looks good
15:07:25 <sysrqb> +1
15:07:53 <gaba> First, I want us to do monthly meetings instead of weekly or biweekly. It seems to me that it may be enough for the work that needs to be done. We can change it if needed.
15:08:30 <antonela> groot, second monday of each month?
15:08:37 <gaba> Sorry, one thing I forgot to say about this pad for the meetings. At the bottom of the page I added a space for updates on the work that has been done and any blocker that people may have.
15:08:42 <gaba> yes antonela
15:08:49 <ahf> at this time?
15:08:55 <antonela> works for me
15:08:59 <gaba> does 15 UTC work for people?
15:09:04 <ahf> yep
15:09:08 <phw> works for me
15:09:33 <ggus> yes
15:09:36 * GeKo stumbles in
15:09:51 <slacktopus> <hellais> :+1:
15:10:00 <ahf> wait, this is the first monday of this month
15:10:17 <ahf> so next one will be 11th of november?
15:10:20 <gaba> yes ahf, but second is ok too :)
15:10:37 * ahf nods
15:11:10 <gaba> ok. Can people confirm when your team is starting to work on this and availability for this sponsor for the next month?
15:11:18 <gaba> for the next 3 months
15:11:29 <antonela> gaba, could we first talk about scope of this sponsor?
15:11:37 <gaba> ok
15:12:02 <slacktopus> <hellais> > ok. Can people confirm when your team is starting to work on this and availability for this sponsor for the next month?  The OONI team is going to start working on this project starting from November 2019 as we are currently maxed out with wrapping up OTF 2019
15:12:50 <gaba> About scope for this sponsor
15:15:14 <antonela> so, i hope this grant allows us to improve the entire censored user flow: discovering, finding, downloading tor browser and connecting and browsing the tor network
15:15:35 <antonela> the ux team specific objective is O3 but in order to have a successful deliverable there, we need to improve all the flow
15:15:52 <gaba> the focus of anti-censorship team for this is to improve bridges
15:16:09 <antonela> tickets under activities are good, but some of them are just bug reports of the current flow, but what happen is that flow is not precisely the flow we want to have at the end of this project?
15:16:14 <antonela> gaba, right
15:16:41 <gaba> and for community the focus is to help increase number of bridges as well as documentation
15:17:08 <gaba> yes, we need to create tickets and some of them we will only be able to do once we have user stories and that flow imporved
15:17:37 <pili> my 2 cents is that this could be a good opportunity to look at all the tickets that have been created around bridges and to define a solution to close these, either because we have solved them or because we have decided on a different way of doing things
15:18:00 <gaba> phw already have been doing this for objective 2
15:18:03 <antonela> yep, bug reporting tickets are informative of the work we should do, of course
15:18:17 <pili> not necessarily addressing each one individually, but as a whole, the way antonela does so well already ;)
15:18:29 <slacktopus> <sbs> pili: +1
15:18:45 <phw> i agree with antonela, this is a good opportunity to get creative and hopefully innovate -- instead of just spending a lot of time fixing tickets with little impact.
15:18:55 <antonela> im thinking in something, and im not sure what others think but: what if we set up a Tor Browser release (maybe 9.5) as the major release for this sponsor improvements? and for that release we collapse and merge all the different efforts we are doing corss team
15:19:00 <antonela> grr, cross-team
15:19:19 <sysrqb> antonela: something like https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/ticket/29590 ?
15:19:20 <GeKo> that's too early i think
15:19:27 <sysrqb> and other similar changes?
15:19:28 <antonela> sysrqb: yes, or other things
15:20:06 <gaba> this is something we do not have to think here as teh first meeting
15:20:47 <antonela> oki
15:20:56 <antonela> fair enough
15:21:01 <gaba> but I agree with you antonelaon looking at the whole activity
15:21:56 <gaba> and close tickets, not just fixing bugs
15:22:35 <gaba> anyway, next would be that each team needs to look at the objective that you are involved in and we need to setup some time to creeate tickets
15:22:48 <antonela> right
15:22:53 <antonela> what does not fall under this sponsor is a good question
15:23:26 <gaba> ok. what does not fall under this sponsor? :)
15:24:00 <antonela> im thinking more in technical limitations, devs?
15:25:20 <gaba> anyone on this?
15:26:14 <ahf> the network team components of this wont be very user visible as far as i can tell, but anything that makes it easier to use bridges with tor fits under this?
15:26:37 <gaba> ahf: there was a question before about O2.3.3 " Improve ability for bridgedb/authority to test bridges that only expose a pluggable transport." and what it implies, right?
15:27:22 <ahf> yeah, i think the network team would like to know a bit more explicitly what this one means for us, because it is potentially quite a change
15:27:59 <ahf> one part is to have bridges with no vanilla tor bridge connection and pts only, another is to enable authorities to test these
15:29:23 <gaba> phw: you are going to work with the network team on this
15:29:36 <sysrqb> on the timeline, what does the red text (in the first column) mean?
15:30:01 <gaba> it means that I need people to review that it is right. Those are the teams working on those specific tasks
15:30:14 <phw> gaba: yes. #30477 is also part of this issue. at this point it's not quite clear yet what the best solution is.
15:30:31 <sysrqb> ah, okay, thanks
15:30:48 <gaba> and #31874
15:31:12 <phw> right, there are multiple ways to do this
15:31:36 <ahf> one is to let bridgedb do it? the other is to let tor do it via the bridge auth?
15:32:45 <phw> ahf: yes, bridgedb is one option. the problem is that if the PT doesn't work, it's difficult to notify the user. having the bridge self-test it is another option, but this approach may be complex and we don't want to give exits the ability to enumerate bridges (see nickm's last comment in #30477)
15:33:11 <sysrqb> this seems like a question that should be resolved next year while working on O2.3 :)
15:33:12 <ahf> yeah
15:33:17 <gaba> yes
15:33:24 <phw> sysrqb: ideally sooner than next year ;)
15:33:35 <sysrqb> phw: ideally, yes :)
15:33:46 <phw> fwiw, i think this would not require a lot of work on bridgedb's side
15:34:40 <phw> we could then propagate all the information to collector, and condition bridge operators to always check relay search to see if their bridge is online.
15:34:59 * phw refrains from further derailing the meeting
15:35:28 <gaba> ok. Next we will need teams to look at the timeline, check that is right and/or make modifications AND we need to work on any ticket that could be filled now for the work that needs to be done. I can work with each time to do this outside the meeting.
15:36:01 <antonela> good, i owe you that gaba
15:36:17 <sysrqb> slightly off topic, but do we have a possible date for the next in-person tor meeting?
15:36:27 <gaba> can you all look at the timeline document and see if those activities are right ? Otherwise please ask questions here
15:36:28 <sysrqb> o2.3 will benefit from that, in particular
15:36:42 <gaba> then I will work with each of you to get this done
15:37:20 <gaba> so far we need browser, ux, metrics and network team leads/liasons for this project to work on tickets for this deliverable and check timelines.
15:37:38 <antonela> the timeline is very useful!
15:37:38 <GeKo> sysrqb: (i think feb 2020 does not sound unreasonable to assume)
15:37:56 <gaba> I heard feb 2020 for in person yes
15:37:59 * antonela feels summer in latam
15:38:02 <sysrqb> GeKo: okay, thanks
15:38:09 <sysrqb> that is helpful
15:38:28 <gaba> are people checking at this holy timeline? :)
15:39:33 <antonela> i am!
15:40:03 <gaba> the questions I have for you are
15:40:06 <slacktopus> <hellais> @gaba I think the timeline for the OONI items is a bit out of sync with what we have in our own roadmap
15:40:11 <gaba> (for you all looking at the timeline)
15:40:13 <gaba> do you need to collaborate with some other team that is not there?
15:40:16 <slacktopus> <hellais> Should I make changes to it directly in the document?
15:40:17 <gaba> is your team be able to work on that specific activity?
15:40:22 <gaba> yes please hellais
15:40:50 <gaba> I was thinking about checking also with you later on how you are going to be organize this at OONI in github but yes, please change the timeline for Obj1
15:41:07 <slacktopus> <hellais> Hum I don’t have edit access
15:41:16 <gaba> oh, just a sec
15:41:19 <gaba> can you refresh first?
15:41:26 <slacktopus> <hellais> You should have access to our timeline inside of the OONI trello board called “Roadmap”
15:41:35 <slacktopus> <hellais> There is a label called “DRL anticensorship”
15:41:52 <gaba> yes, still let's try to update this here for the whole project
15:42:28 <slacktopus> <hellais> wow this only office thing is terrible
15:42:37 <antonela> haha
15:42:42 <gaba> yep
15:42:43 <slacktopus> <hellais> I can’t select all and delete :(
15:42:48 <gaba> mmm
15:43:09 <gaba> did you refresh? sometimes it gets off when you didn't use the doc for some time....
15:43:23 <gaba> are you all able to edit this document?
15:43:33 <phw> gaba: it may be helpful to work with the community team on O2.1, A2. whoever is travelling could help us understand how our distribution mechanisms fall short.
15:44:11 <gaba> sounds good
15:44:12 <pili> phw: we're not going to be travelling much in the short term unfortunately
15:44:21 <pili> ggus: might know more though :)
15:44:38 <pili> we could do some remote testing on this though
15:44:41 <phw> pili: okay, np
15:45:24 <ggus> phw: yep, we don't have travels very soon. But we can coordinate with partners in Uganda, for example.
15:45:31 <gaba> I'm adding community there for coordinate later
15:46:00 <slacktopus> <hellais> I updated it based on the OONI roadmap
15:46:07 <gaba> thanks
15:46:12 <slacktopus> <hellais> Though we have much more activities than those listed in that document
15:46:37 <phw> ggus: that may be helpful -- i'll get back to you on that, ok?
15:46:46 <ggus> ok :)
15:46:53 <gaba> For O2 we have anti-censorship team already started and working on O2.1 O2.2 and O2.4 now in October.
15:46:54 * cohosh is here lurking
15:47:07 <gaba> antonela: you said you can start in november, right?
15:47:14 * har00ga also lurkz
15:47:19 <antonela> gaba, yes
15:47:32 <gaba> For O3 we have anti-censorship team starting in October on O3.1
15:47:47 <gaba> phw: anything that may be blocked by antonela's work so far?
15:48:04 <slacktopus> <hellais> As a heads up at OONI we are planning to wrap up the DRL anticensorship grant by end of July 2020
15:48:38 <phw> gaba: no, i think we have plenty to work on in the meanwhile.
15:48:50 <sysrqb> antonela: gaba: do you see O2.1 A2 and O3.2 A2 as different pieces? I see them
15:48:59 <slacktopus> <hellais> After that we are going to keep providing support for the things we have worked on, but it will not be a priority for us anymore
15:49:11 <sysrqb> is O2.1 A2 more technical and O3.2 A2 more UI/UX?
15:50:05 <antonela> sysrqb: one is about bridges.tpo and the other about tor browser, but we should think about them holistically because fixing those parts isolated maybe doesn't fix the entire flow at the end
15:50:12 <gaba> O3.2 A2 seems more about training and documentation too
15:50:32 <gaba> actually not. Yes more UI
15:51:08 <gaba> hellais: ok. please add any info on any other team you may need to work with
15:51:25 <sysrqb> antonela: gaba: okay, thanks. we should be smart about how we accomplish those tasks :)
15:51:26 <antonela> yes, O3.2 in my mind is something that can help censored users on 1. noticing what is going on (nowadays tor launcher just fails) 2. empower them to recover and connect
15:52:18 <slacktopus> <hellais> > hellais: ok. please add any info on any other team you may need to work with  Where should I add this?
15:52:18 <phw> one thing we could use help with is bridgedb's captcha: it's in bad shape and if anyone has ideas on replacing or improving it, please let me know.
15:52:27 <gaba> sysrqb: when does your team can start to work on this?
15:52:47 <sysrqb> antonela: okay, so this includes tor browser "detecting" censorship and providing solutions
15:53:06 <antonela> maybe? if is part of the scope :)
15:53:13 <antonela> sysrqb: i hope so!
15:53:24 <sysrqb> gaba: i believe we'll start at the end of this year
15:53:31 <gaba> hellais: mention it here and add it to the first column of the spreadsheet
15:53:32 <sysrqb> pili: GeKo: yes? ^
15:53:38 <antonela> sysrqb: and there is where the ooni part needs to be useful for us too
15:54:03 <pili> O3.2 A2?
15:54:15 <slacktopus> <hellais> @sbs probably knows more, but I suspect some input/help from the network team for the Tor integration may be useful and perhaps some help from whoever maintains the pluggable transports these days
15:54:15 <sysrqb> antonela: right. that is the "easier" part of this, where we already know where censorship exists
15:54:50 <phw> sysrqb: at the last dev meeting we talked about a hard-coded "table" in tor browser that encodes what works in what country.
15:55:06 <sysrqb> phw: yeah, that is what i'd imagine (as a starting point)
15:55:09 <phw> tor browser could then figure out where it is, consult the table, and tell the user "you're in country foo, so you need to use PT bar"
15:55:36 <phw> (see #28531 for more context)
15:56:21 <antonela> yep, that is the plan i think we have
15:56:22 <pili> sysrqb: I think we could start later if we needed to
15:56:31 <sysrqb> pili: in general.
15:56:34 <pili> although I wouldn't be opposed to starting earlier if all the other pieces are in place
15:56:39 <sysrqb> pili: yeah, i was just thinking that, too
15:56:59 <sysrqb> and we may need to help earlier
15:56:59 <pili> I think for this sponsor there was no browser team work planned for the first 3 months due to the ESR transition
15:57:00 <gaba> ok. anything else  for this meeting?
15:57:12 <sysrqb> but none of our objectives are scheduled until next year
15:57:23 <pili> because we thought it was going to start earlier
15:57:24 <pili> so end of the year sounds about right
15:57:25 <pili> we can review :)
15:57:36 <sysrqb> yep :)
15:57:42 <gaba> ok
15:57:51 <sysrqb> phw: ack, i think an in-person meeting will help with deciding how we handle it
15:57:58 <phw> sysrqb: yes, agreed
15:58:01 <sysrqb> (which was why i asked that question about timing)
15:58:21 <antonela> last thing, people who is going to be in taipei, can we sync about this sponsor in person?
15:58:30 * phw nods
15:58:31 <antonela> ooni, phw, me
15:58:41 <antonela> lets do it offline, will send an email
15:59:02 <phw> thanks antonela
15:59:14 <GeKo> sysrqb: yes, end of the year sounds reasonable
15:59:31 <sysrqb> kk
16:00:04 <gaba> sounds good
16:00:29 <gaba> i'm going to end the meeting here then
16:00:34 <gaba> #endmeeting