17:59:13 <ahf> #startmeeting Network team meeting, 16 december 2019
17:59:13 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Dec 16 17:59:13 2019 UTC.  The chair is ahf. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:59:13 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
17:59:18 <ahf> o/
17:59:23 <catalyst> o/
17:59:26 <nickm> hihi
17:59:30 <ahf> last network-team meeting of 2019 :-) remember we have our roadmap meeting in 2h from now!
17:59:36 <ahf> okay, our pad is at https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-netteam-2019.1-keep
17:59:53 <ahf> we are gonna skip the 0.4.2 status today, and go directly to the roadmap stuff
18:00:00 <ahf> how does things like there for everybody?
18:00:03 <dgoulet> O/
18:00:10 <ahf> o/
18:00:49 <nickm> I think there are some things in review now...
18:00:56 * nickm checks...
18:01:27 <dgoulet> yeah I assigned 3 tickets this morning
18:01:40 <ahf> nice
18:01:41 <gaba> o/
18:02:45 <ahf> oki, cool
18:02:52 <ahf> dgoulet: are we OK with reviewers?
18:03:35 <dgoulet> I hope so? :)
18:04:09 <ahf> trac is loading really slowly for me
18:04:25 <ahf> ok, looks good
18:04:34 <ahf> gaba have a discussion item around GSoC that is coming up
18:04:36 <nickm> that's a lot, but will try
18:05:10 <gaba> GSoC is to decide if you want to mentor students next summer or not
18:05:17 <gaba> 3 months during the summer
18:05:24 <gaba> we have time to apply until february
18:05:42 <ahf> we should also think about some projects, right?
18:05:49 <gaba> If you want to mentor a student then please let me or Pili knows. Pili will be sending the application.
18:05:52 <gaba> right
18:06:06 <gaba> I added a link there that is a list of ideas from last year
18:06:48 <ahf> very nice
18:07:35 <ahf> we have one more item to discuss:
18:07:54 <ahf> catalyst would like us to discuss if we should consider moving from asciidoc to asciidoctor
18:08:37 <nickm> personally I think we'd be happier in the long-term with something that can handle markdown.  the asciidoc format is unusual and not widely supported
18:08:38 <catalyst> see #25519 for some notes
18:08:59 <ahf> nickm: like pandoc or something like that?
18:09:06 <nickm> is there a reason we shouldn't consider markdown, or that we should consider asciidoctor as an intermediate step?
18:09:17 <nickm> ahf: I don't know, maybe.
18:09:32 <catalyst> markdown isn't well specified?
18:09:41 <nickm> Is asciidoc?
18:10:24 <catalyst> asciidoctor seems to be somewhat better specified than asciidoc. both seem a little better than markdown
18:10:48 <nickm> hm.
18:10:49 <catalyst> remember we need to generate manpages too
18:10:55 <ahf> i think a good argument for moving to asciidoctor is that it sounds like it's more well-maintained and it's more of a developer dependency than the rest of the things we have as dependencies
18:11:21 <nickm> Is there any reason not to?  Is there any significant migration cost?
18:11:45 <catalyst> that's what i've been trying to find out. migration cost isn't trivial but also ins't large
18:11:58 <ahf> developers needs to install a new tool and we need some conversion?
18:12:01 <catalyst> the worst incompatibilities with asciidoc seem related to monospace formatting
18:12:45 <gaba> markdown seems a lot more used for documentation
18:13:28 <dgoulet> and we are going markdown with doxygen?
18:13:47 <catalyst> doxygen != markdown, but will accept some (modified) markdown, as i recall?
18:14:23 <nickm> doxygen does accept markdown, and we're already using markdown in doxygen
18:14:24 <catalyst> anyway remaining with legacy asciidoc long-term seems like a bad idea to me
18:14:42 <nickm> I agree that we should dump legacy asciidoc
18:14:47 <ahf> i think moving to markdown is a good idea, but i think this is an intermediate step
18:15:07 <catalyst> also modern asciidoctor tooling advertises itself as asciidoc even when it isn't quite compatibile with asciidoc
18:15:18 <ahf> one thing that have caused us a bit of truble with GSoD is the lack of availability of the tooling for asciidoc on windows i think, and asciidoctor worked in, for example, the atom editor with a plug-in
18:15:21 <catalyst> swati ran into this and it caused some confusion
18:15:31 <ahf> ya
18:17:23 <ahf> so, it sounds like people are all OK with moving to asciidoctor, but we also think the next step would be to move to some markdown implementation for our man-pages?
18:17:53 * ahf had asciidoctor on his debian, so is not that concerned
18:18:21 <catalyst> older Travis Linux VMs might not have asciidoctor, but newer ones probably do
18:18:51 <nickm> i have no objection to asciidoctor, and think that maintained is better than unmaintained
18:19:10 <nickm> [who else uses asciidoctor?]
18:22:23 <ahf> i don't know the answer to that
18:22:29 <nickm> ok
18:22:42 <ahf> i started installing a tool to find reverse dependencies on my debian, but it will take longer time than i want to wait right now i think
18:22:55 <catalyst> i think git still uses legacy asciidoctor; not sure how they plan to deal with its lack of maintenance
18:23:38 <catalyst> github has preview rendering for asciidoc
18:24:42 <nickm> okay, that makes it seem that we wouldn't become the biggest asciidoctor user.  Good. :)
18:24:51 <ahf> hehe
18:25:20 <catalyst> asciidoctor's major corporate sponsor seems to be okta, whoever that is
18:26:59 <ahf> cool!
18:27:06 <ahf> oki, do we have anything else we need to talk about today?
18:27:27 <ahf> otherwise we are going to see each other on the video chat in 1h30min for roadmap!
18:27:48 <dgoulet> I put in in the announcement the tracing survey
18:27:56 <dgoulet> just please reply so I can move on to tor-dev@, thanks :)
18:28:04 <mikeperry> speaking of doc links, I have a doc merge in #28804. I need a permanent link for the report + blog posts
18:28:05 <nickm> should I put stuff in the pad before or during the roadmap session?
18:28:27 <nickm> mikeperry: I think karsten handles whitepapers
18:28:53 <mikeperry> this is the circpad doc you helped with for docs/HACKING/
18:29:15 <ahf> dgoulet: ack!
18:29:25 <ahf> nickm: i'll let gaba answer that one
18:29:37 <nickm> mikeperry: ok
18:29:52 <nickm> mikeperry: in that case, having it in docs/HACKING seems ok to me, but I don't have a strong opinion
18:29:59 <ahf> a permanent link to what is in the file as of today or?
18:30:34 <mikeperry> no, just it needs to be merged so I dont have to had out links to a rando git branch for it.
18:30:40 <mikeperry> we decided on doc/HACKING some time ago
18:30:48 <mikeperry> it just needs to be in master
18:31:21 <nickm> ok.  so, once asn acks it, we can merge?
18:31:39 <ahf> mikeperry: can you coordinate with asn then? please use signal as per the message on the network team list
18:32:21 <mikeperry> ok
18:32:28 <ahf> thx
18:32:59 <ahf> oki, do we have anything else? i think nickm have an unanswered question still, but i don't know the answer to that :-/
18:33:11 <dgoulet> would like an answer to that ^
18:33:20 <ahf> gaba: ^^
18:33:21 <dgoulet> I have bunch of texts for my ideas, should I just plainly paste them in the pad?
18:34:05 <nickm> dgoulet: Hm. I think if everydoy is doing short lists, maybe it would be a good idea to havea  link to a pad with a much larger text?
18:34:08 <nickm> dgoulet: up to you
18:34:13 <nickm> *everybody
18:34:28 <dgoulet> yeah I thought of that
18:34:31 <dgoulet> probably wiser
18:34:40 <dgoulet> would be a mess else
18:36:35 <ahf> i think putting them into the pad might be a good idea?
18:36:44 <dgoulet> well I put a link so :)
18:36:48 <ahf> coolio
18:37:11 <gaba> nickm: yes please
18:37:14 <gaba> before the meeting
18:37:17 <gaba> if possible
18:37:26 <nickm> ok
18:38:46 <ahf> cool
18:39:31 <ahf> okay, anything else?
18:40:08 * dgoulet is good
18:40:23 <ahf> cool
18:40:26 <ahf> #endmeeting