17:59:12 <gaba> #startmeeting Browser June 22nd :)
17:59:12 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jun 22 17:59:12 2020 UTC.  The chair is gaba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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17:59:23 <antonela> hello!
17:59:23 <acat> hi!
17:59:26 <gaba> meeting pad still in https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-tbb-2020-keep
17:59:30 <mcs> hi
17:59:32 <sysrqb> o/
17:59:38 <ahf> o/
18:05:26 <gaba> should we start?
18:05:37 <gaba> it seems that people are done adding statuses?
18:07:32 <sysrqb> i think yes
18:08:28 <sysrqb> hrm. busy week.
18:09:26 <gaba> let's talk about reviews in the second item
18:09:33 <gaba> first, do we have a TB release meeting tomorrow or not?
18:09:41 <sysrqb> yes, i think we should
18:09:50 <gaba> it was in the calendar
18:09:51 <gaba> ok
18:10:03 * gaba will send a mail to tor-project@ announcing it then
18:10:37 <gaba> Second item in the list of the agenda is gitlab
18:10:46 <gaba> how are people coordinating reviews?
18:11:06 <GeKo> i think it depends
18:11:25 <GeKo> there are older tickets in review
18:11:37 <GeKo> that is before the merge requests menthod
18:11:40 <GeKo> *method
18:11:50 <GeKo> and after that got enabled
18:11:54 <GeKo> (which was today)
18:12:08 <GeKo> and it seems we need different processes for that
18:12:36 <ahf> or ask people to create MR's
18:12:50 <GeKo> we could do that
18:13:02 <GeKo> i think we should try to avoid "Needs Review" where we can
18:13:20 <gaba> ok
18:13:23 <ahf> +1, the network team is trying to figure out how w edo that, because we still depend on CI on github :-/ it is a bit messy right now
18:13:30 <GeKo> i was trying to make that point in https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/28#note_2679539
18:13:36 <gaba> network team is using needs review and then assigning it with a group label review::person
18:13:54 <GeKo> that's what i like to avoid at least
18:13:56 <GeKo> :)
18:13:59 <gaba> ok :)
18:14:03 <GeKo> because of label creep and such
18:14:11 <sysrqb> if a patch should be rebased, then we can use a MR for the new branch
18:14:13 <GeKo> but maybe other folks have differnt opinions
18:14:38 <acat> GeKo: at least for #33533 it's not possible to do a MR, so maybe we keep needs_review only for those cases (legacy process)?
18:14:48 <GeKo> yep
18:14:51 <sysrqb> for existing tickets/patches in newds_review, i think we should look at those individually and review them using the old process
18:14:57 <GeKo> that sounds like a good trade-off to me
18:15:18 <gaba> ok
18:15:26 <sysrqb> and by "rebased", i don't mean #33533 :)
18:15:35 <gaba> labels, not sure if you all are coordinating on labels. We sent a mail on Thursday about it
18:15:47 <sysrqb> i started looking at that earlier today
18:15:48 <GeKo> i was going over our labels over the weekend
18:15:53 <sysrqb> we'll coordinate
18:15:58 <GeKo> and have some ideas here
18:16:00 <sysrqb> ah.okay, GeKo is looking at it
18:16:06 <GeKo> we can both
18:16:10 <GeKo> or just you
18:16:17 <ahf> nickm's tool is worth looking at too - it was just applied to the core/* files
18:16:21 <gaba> ok
18:16:24 <GeKo> i just want to avoid this alling through the cracks
18:16:35 <sysrqb> yep
18:16:37 <GeKo> and above all getting rid of old labels
18:16:43 <GeKo> *off
18:16:56 <GeKo> which we needed due to a trac workflow
18:17:14 <sysrqb> yes
18:17:20 <GeKo> sysrqb: so, maybe you look to and then we sync some time this week
18:17:24 <GeKo> ?
18:17:33 <GeKo> (before thursday)
18:17:53 <GeKo> *look too
18:18:04 <sysrqb> okay, we can try this plan
18:18:17 <GeKo> or wahtever works for you
18:18:33 <ahf> if you get stressed about the deadline then just let me know - we can apply to the other subprojects on thursday if you need a bit longer. i just try to set a time to get people started
18:18:39 <gaba> how are we doing with tickets on s58? I will have stuff organized into a milestone soon. For now everything is under sponso58 label
18:18:41 <ahf> and it will make searches a lot faster
18:19:04 <gaba> ahf: let's not try to be flexible here on that deadline :)
18:19:23 <ahf> oki :-)
18:19:36 <GeKo> sysrqb: the gitlab comment posted above might be worth reading for you, too
18:19:44 <sysrqb> i may ask for an extension, though
18:19:50 <sysrqb> GeKo: i have it open in a tab, now
18:20:01 <GeKo> as it gives more context for what i might say about the labeling
18:20:06 <GeKo> ok
18:20:08 <sysrqb> thanks
18:20:27 <GeKo> gaba: there are plenty of tickets to include :)
18:20:33 <gaba> yes
18:20:35 <sysrqb> ahf: we'll try our best to get this ready before thursday
18:20:40 <ahf> sounds good
18:20:48 <gaba> I will have s58 organized in gitlab for next meeting
18:20:55 <sysrqb> but with everything happening this week,it may be a little dificult
18:20:55 <gaba> so far how are we doing with the stuff for this week?
18:21:01 <GeKo> i like the idea of all tickets in the milestone being the must ones for teh sponsor
18:21:16 <GeKo> while "Sponsor 58" includes those and which we could think of working on
18:21:22 <gaba> yes
18:21:35 <GeKo> that way we can acoid "-must "", and "-can"
18:21:38 <GeKo> *avoid
18:21:49 <GeKo> which seems smart
18:22:03 <sysrqb> that sounds reasonable to me
18:22:29 * antonela "a brand new Safari, with intelligent anti tracking protection"
18:22:42 <sysrqb> but i'll read tpo/tpa/gitlab#28
18:23:27 * gaba too
18:23:55 <sysrqb> blog moderation?
18:24:03 <gaba> sure
18:24:08 <antonela> i left you in the release blogpost sysrqb :(
18:24:23 <antonela> maybe after a week we can close comments?
18:24:52 <sysrqb> that is one possible policy
18:25:07 <sysrqb> recently i began closing comments on the previous blog post when a new one is released
18:25:19 <sysrqb> and this provides a channel for reporting bugs between releases
18:25:19 <GeKo> the problem with that is that comments then often come up int differnt blog posts
18:25:27 <GeKo> because folks often don't go away
18:25:59 <GeKo> and folks monitoring those blog posts are not happy
18:26:05 <antonela> but we cannot hold them hand for ever GeKo
18:26:09 <GeKo> because now they have to deal with browser questions
18:26:09 <antonela> like we are working here
18:26:15 <GeKo> yes
18:26:17 <GeKo> look
18:26:47 <GeKo> i don't find it unreasonable to just not allow comments for tor browser blog entries right now
18:26:58 <GeKo> due to capacity problems
18:27:00 <GeKo> :)
18:27:14 <antonela> i mean, if is painful for me dealing with conspirationist, i think is more useful for the project to keep my working hours doing a different thing than replying people in the blog
18:27:15 <GeKo> i am just saying that this and similar strategies have drwabacks
18:27:33 <antonela> right, and probably killing comments after some days is just enough
18:27:34 <sysrqb> maybe we have a policy that all blog posts have closed comments
18:27:45 <GeKo> sysrqb: yep
18:27:47 <sysrqb> except the friday blog post where people can post quetions/comments/etc
18:27:54 <GeKo> i'd be onboard with that
18:27:56 <sysrqb> and that is where we answer questions
18:28:00 <antonela> but then, you want to use a blog entry for support desk
18:28:17 <sysrqb> anonymous support desk...yes
18:28:17 <antonela> i dont see a difference :)
18:28:19 <sysrqb> it is shitty
18:28:19 <antonela> but lets seee
18:29:16 <GeKo> the blog folks report valid bugs
18:29:28 <antonela> yes, mostly the firsts days
18:29:34 <GeKo> but i have not seens a single bug in months that would make it onto our todo list
18:29:35 <GeKo> right now
18:29:39 <GeKo> *seen
18:29:52 <GeKo> because we have this s58 thing and the transition
18:29:57 <GeKo> to esr78
18:29:59 <antonela> not true, mcs and brade fixed reported bugs i manually opened after 9.5 release
18:30:11 <GeKo> yes
18:30:16 <antonela> reported from the useful blogpost commentors
18:30:20 <GeKo> i mean for the upcoming work
18:30:24 <antonela> ah yes
18:30:56 <GeKo> which makes it extra hard to explain why we tend to blog comments at the moment
18:31:13 <GeKo> given the pile of unsolved issues to get fenix and tor browser 10 going
18:31:43 <antonela> im happy to reply comments and open tickets for two max three days
18:31:57 <antonela> more is insane given our capacity
18:32:12 <GeKo> one thing i wondered whether nicolei could help here
18:32:18 <acat> i can try also to moderate blog comments if needed
18:32:26 <sysrqb> but, somehow, we should prevent tor browser comments on other blog posts after three days
18:32:41 <GeKo> they are already collecting all sorts of users feedback things
18:33:10 <GeKo> but that comes with a learning curve too if it works well...
18:33:20 <antonela> you may want to check with ggus their capacity
18:33:28 <GeKo> yeah
18:33:30 <antonela> they are replying RT tickets the entire day
18:33:39 <acat> right now it's not possible for users to report bugs via gitlab, right?
18:33:45 <ahf> not yet, no
18:33:59 <ahf> permissions are an unsolved issue right now and we want to do that before opening up
18:34:00 <GeKo> i think my sympathy right now is to just disable comments and that would mean for all blog posts
18:34:07 <GeKo> (all regular ones)
18:34:24 <GeKo> but that#s a project decision to make
18:34:29 <GeKo> so, dunno
18:34:31 <antonela> but even gitlab is looking to enabling support desk for community editions (seems like something around it is happening) which probably will improve the entire flow
18:35:08 <antonela> https://about.gitlab.com/stages-devops-lifecycle/service-desk/
18:35:34 <antonela> and for sure the moderation will be better, let see if it reaches the ce version
18:36:17 <sysrqb> i can send an email to tor-project@ and we can discuss this
18:36:38 <sysrqb> because people stop moderating other blog posts after a few days (or week), too
18:36:50 <antonela> isn't phw's thread the one we are discussing this?
18:38:30 <sysrqb> but that is focused on an everything-goes post
18:38:37 <sysrqb> not disabling comments on all other posts
18:38:41 <antonela> right
18:38:55 <sysrqb> one concern i have is whether we have an alternative for reporting bugs
18:39:03 <sysrqb> is RT a good replacement?
18:39:05 <ggus> hey!
18:39:12 <antonela> o/
18:39:24 <sysrqb> o/
18:39:27 <ggus> i missed the context that you're discussing
18:39:28 <ggus> o/
18:39:49 <ggus> how to report bugs about tor browser?
18:39:59 <GeKo> sysrqb: irc! :)
18:40:51 <sysrqb> GeKo: yeah. i suppose we can try that
18:41:03 <sysrqb> i mean, people already use that
18:41:11 <GeKo> yep
18:41:13 <sysrqb> but i don't know if that is a good replacement for blog comments
18:41:24 <GeKo> it's not
18:41:39 <GeKo> but it's hard to find one
18:41:45 <GeKo> which does not cause additional load
18:41:52 <sysrqb> yeah
18:42:06 <sysrqb> maybe i'll fork phw's thread
18:42:12 <sysrqb> and we can discuss this project-wide
18:42:25 <GeKo> ggus: we were thinking about proposing to disable all blog comments
18:42:27 <GeKo> for now
18:42:27 <sysrqb> because this needs buy-in from everyone
18:42:41 <GeKo> because we ca't handle the load right now
18:42:46 <GeKo> *can't
18:43:06 <GeKo> and then we wonderedd how folks would report (tor browser) bugs
18:43:13 <ggus> hum
18:43:20 <GeKo> sysrqb: sounds like a plan
18:44:09 <gaba> ok. next one is dev.tpo content from antonela
18:44:17 <gaba> unless there is something else about blog moderation :)
18:44:29 <sysrqb> not from me. i'll take that as my next-step
18:44:36 <GeKo> ggus: the problem is that just disabling comments on tor-browser blog posts will make other teams unhappy :)
18:44:47 * GeKo is done here, too
18:44:55 <ggus> GeKo: what about opening the issues in github and then close it when we fixed the gitlab permissions?
18:45:34 <ggus> we also could use a form to report bugs, but people like to see if the bug was already submitted
18:45:43 <GeKo> dunno
18:45:59 <GeKo> we could think about that in the forked thread sysrqbis about to start
18:46:07 <GeKo> *sysrqb is
18:46:09 <gaba> I say let's bring this discussion to the mailing list and maybe to Wednesday's all hands
18:46:26 <GeKo> yep
18:46:35 <ggus> ok! just to let you know that Nicolei's internship goes til august. after that we're uncovered (at the moment).
18:46:48 <GeKo> i see
18:47:01 <gaba> ok
18:47:07 <antonela> something nice i did in a old company was having people sitting in frontdesk a morning per week
18:47:21 <gaba> antonela: do you want to talk about which feedback you want on dev.tpo?
18:47:41 <gaba> +1 to do frontdesk work once in a while for everybody :)
18:47:45 <antonela> so this is extremely useful, because everybody in the company was aware about the issues customers were facing
18:48:03 <antonela> if we organize ourselves we can maybe build capacity for support
18:48:04 <ahf> we will have a solution for issues, both account creation and anonymous before august
18:48:20 <ahf> unles some epic bikeshedding happens
18:48:37 <sysrqb> heh.
18:48:41 <ggus> nice! :)
18:48:51 <antonela> gaba: yes, about dev.tpo, i made a first approach on the content we want to have there. Please, let me know what do you think, if i missing anything and most better if i missed anything, link me to the current content
18:48:51 <sysrqb> i like the idea of rotations, too.
18:49:37 <sysrqb> antonela: thanks
18:49:40 <sysrqb> exciting
18:49:46 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/trac/-/issues/24132
18:49:57 <antonela> this is the issue, scroll down
18:50:15 <antonela> i made a md so is easy for anyone to propose a new structure or add content
18:50:22 <antonela> feel free to do it, i'll have it open the next two weeks
18:50:41 <antonela> thanks!!
18:50:49 <sysrqb> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/trac/-/issues/24132#note_2681345
18:51:05 <antonela> ^^^
18:52:19 <sysrqb> do we have any other discussion items for today's meeting?
18:52:27 <sysrqb> i don't see any on the pad
18:53:01 * ahf good
18:53:08 <GeKo> antonela: i guess we discuss the ux labels during the label sync
18:53:12 <GeKo> would that work for you?
18:53:24 <antonela> yes, is great
18:53:29 <antonela> thanks for looking at the ticket!
18:53:30 <GeKo> (it seems we did not address that point from teh pad yet)
18:53:38 <sysrqb> ah, yes, we did skip that
18:53:40 <GeKo> sure
18:53:42 <antonela> is fine if you go over hte ticket tho
18:54:45 <gaba> mmm, i thought the ux labels was in the same topic
18:54:57 <gaba> ok
18:54:59 <gaba> anything else?
18:55:07 <gaba> anything people need help with ?
18:55:37 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/anti-censorship/trac/-/issues/40004
18:55:38 <antonela> still waits for review
18:55:48 <antonela> mcs, brade, GeKo, sysrqb, acat please take a look
18:55:55 <sysrqb> si
18:56:00 <antonela> <3
18:57:23 <GeKo> end of june you said, right?
18:57:24 <sysrqb> okay, good?
18:57:34 <antonela> ohh one more thing, we can discuss the tba alpha releases through the google play flow during the release meeting
18:57:40 <antonela> (that is all, promise)
18:57:55 <antonela> is not a question, is more a reminder lol
18:58:09 <gaba> ok
18:58:22 <gaba> let's close the meeting now and conversation can continue in other channel
18:58:25 <gaba> #endmeeting