15:08:09 <gaba> #startmeeting Gitlab July 7th
15:08:09 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Jul  7 15:08:09 2020 UTC.  The chair is gaba. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:08:09 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:08:10 <gaba> sprru
15:08:12 <gaba> sorry
15:08:13 <ahf> they cannot create their own projects (we are not a hosting platform for everybody) and cannot create snippets
15:08:20 <anarcat> i'll let you lead :)
15:08:26 <ahf> but should be able to *fork* projects and contribute via that
15:09:13 <gaba> did you see the mail from hans?
15:09:24 <gaba> he couldnt create forks or repos with an external user
15:09:50 <gaba> ufa, docs.gitlab.com is down
15:10:21 <ahf> looking
15:10:55 <ahf> did you do something such that he could? a lot of users have a project limit of zero
15:11:11 <ahf> i see he has a snowflake project?
15:11:42 <gaba> Can create groups: No
15:11:43 <gaba> Personal projects limit: 0
15:11:44 <gaba> I see
15:11:47 <gaba> that is the default
15:12:05 <ahf> yeah, i tend to bump it to 1-2 if i know for example it is someone who is going to help with tpo/core/tor
15:12:07 <ahf> and needs to fork tor
15:12:13 <gaba> hiro removed the external user from hans
15:12:22 <ahf> ah, that is fine in his case i think
15:12:29 <gaba> ahf: maybe we should do that for everybody
15:12:42 <gaba> 5 projects for all external users
15:12:46 <ahf> i don't think we should remove external for everybody before we are 100% sure our permissions on all of tpo/ is correct
15:13:02 <gaba> not remove external users, change the limit on projects
15:13:06 <ahf> ah!
15:13:11 <anarcat> gaba: https://gitlab.com/help is up
15:13:30 <gaba> we need to lower the barriers of contributing through gitlab
15:13:44 <ahf> right
15:14:05 <ahf> i'm just double checking if this helps with fork
15:14:58 <ahf> yeah, bumping it to 1 makes me able to fork a project, but not create my own project
15:15:08 <ahf> okay, so i need to look at *all* external users and bump their limit to 1-2 ?
15:15:12 <anarcat> we're talking about https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/48 right?
15:15:26 <gaba> right
15:15:31 <gaba> anarcaT: i was just looking for that ticket
15:15:40 <gaba> I want us to talk about https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/48 and https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/issues/15 today
15:15:40 <anarcat> woot
15:15:52 <ahf> well, sort of. i think right now we are talking about an issue with the users we have in the queue right now
15:15:55 <ahf> that we imported from trac
15:16:02 <anarcat> i'm happy to talk, but i don't have much time to volunteer ;)
15:16:12 <gaba> yes, that is mostly about permissions (#15)
15:16:35 <anarcat> i like how KDE did this - with a server-wide group to grant permissions
15:16:41 <gaba> so, you are all ok if we bump or external users projects to 5?
15:16:49 <ahf> heck, if they can only fork projects we can just bump it to five
15:16:49 <ahf> yeah
15:16:56 <gaba> anarcat: i couldnt totally understand how they are working it out
15:16:59 <ahf> i can do that with a script
15:17:02 <gaba> we have several groups
15:17:06 <gaba> ahf: thanks! +1
15:17:23 <gaba> ahf: I will comment this in the #15 ticket so we can document it later
15:17:35 <anarcat> one difference they have with us it they don't have all projects in a top-level group, but have groups per team
15:17:35 * gaba is going to move that into documentation when she is done with wikis...
15:17:41 <ahf> yep, we are not solving the issue with this, so i think it's more of a side-ticket to that
15:17:51 <gaba> anarcat: we have a tpo group but then we have subgroups
15:18:38 <anarcat> gaba: yes, i know :)
15:19:11 <ahf> ok, i have added a note on this now in my personal tracker which is still post-its but is gonna be migrated to GL soon 8)
15:19:24 <ahf> hans have given us access to fdroid's very beefy builder
15:19:33 <gaba> anarcat: yes, i know you know but how that is different ?
15:19:36 <ahf> i think we should make it global with the socialist load distribution algorithm
15:19:47 <gaba> +1 ahf
15:20:03 <ahf> and i am talking with DO about their sponsorship. i think their 1200USD/period means 1200USD now and then we go poke them when we spend that, so not 1200USD/month as i thought for a while yesterday
15:20:13 <ahf> the free software sponsor people are coming back to me today with the final info
15:20:31 <ahf> but, even if that means it is only 100 USD/month we can still setup another builder there
15:20:41 <gaba> yes, sounds good
15:20:44 <ahf> and i'm gonna write to Linode this week too to see if i can get some money out of them too
15:20:56 <anarcat> gaba: i think the point is that they don't use the group/subgroup categorization to grant access - they just grant access to the group in individual projects
15:21:02 <anarcat> at least that's the point i was trying to make
15:21:21 <gaba> you mean that there are groups but the projects get created outside the groups and the groups get access
15:21:24 <gaba> i see
15:21:40 <gaba> still not sure if that model would work for us
15:21:45 <ahf> i think KDE have a waaaay higher amount of developers arriving and leaving that only hacks on a very few amount of projects
15:21:52 <ahf> where we have a very limited amount of people working on a lot of projects
15:21:53 <anarcat> gaba: not if you want the global dashboards, no
15:21:56 <anarcat> but otherwise it could :)
15:21:59 <anarcat> anyways
15:22:04 <anarcat> didn't mean to derail that
15:22:19 <gaba> ok, can we talk about tpo/tpa/gitlab#48 ?
15:22:25 * ahf looks
15:23:02 <ahf> hm
15:23:18 <ahf> that is what we want to solve with the lobby where we also try to solve the cypherpunks "problem"?
15:23:23 <gaba> my main concern now is that we are not creating new accounts
15:23:33 <gaba> for people that didnt have trac accounts
15:24:05 <ahf> we *can* do that if we want. they are almost easier to do than the email changing of imported users :-/
15:24:12 <anarcat> i thought the idea for that was that people would write to gitlab-admin@ and we create the email
15:24:17 <anarcat> create the account*
15:25:28 <ahf> if we create them with external=True, project limit = 5, can create groups = False, then i think it might be OK to add also unknown people now
15:25:31 <anarcat> gaba: maybe we need to talk about documentation again :)
15:25:32 <ahf> to start testing that a bit more
15:25:37 <anarcat> after we're done with users
15:25:48 <gaba> anarcat: yes, i have been quite busy but will do documetnation soon when i have time
15:26:10 <gaba> ahf: the question is about creating all users, not only trac users
15:26:29 <anarcat> gaba: i was refering to the fact that you created a new wiki in the gitlab project, but we can talk later :)
15:27:00 <ahf> gaba: yeah, that is what i am talking about too
15:27:25 <ahf> as long as we configure them like the ones we imported, i think it might be OK to do now. we have some experience now with all the trac imported users and nothing has been b0rked by it
15:27:45 <ahf> as long as they have these flags: external=True, project limit=5, can create groups = False
15:27:47 <ahf> they are the important ones
15:28:00 <gaba> sounds good to me
15:28:03 <ahf> then people can contribute, but cannot create their own projects and use us as a hosting platform for their pet projects
15:28:08 <gaba> let's start creating users for everybody that is asking for one
15:28:13 <gaba> with those limitations you mention
15:28:29 <gaba> external=True, project limit = 5, can create groups = False
15:28:50 <ahf> yep
15:29:16 <gaba> ahf: "lobby system" can you explain a little again how is that you are thinking about it?
15:29:30 <ahf> sure
15:29:40 <anarcat> brb ~8m
15:29:50 <ahf> the idea is that we don't want to open up gitlab's own sign-up form because it attracts so many spam users that it is insane
15:29:59 <ahf> and we cannot enable any of the anti-spam features as a lot of our users are on via tor
15:30:09 <ahf> and we don't want to give our users' IP to the external spam detection systems
15:30:11 <ahf> so
15:30:26 <ahf> instead we wanted to have a place where people can request an account and we can just "approve" it or "reject" it
15:30:54 <gaba> right
15:31:04 <ahf> additionally, once that is done, we want to have a way for "anonymous" users to submit tickets, that needs moderation, which each team that wants to accept anonymous tickets needs to come with a moderator of those
15:31:09 <gaba> so this is a form where people request accounts
15:31:32 <ahf> the beginning of it is here: https://gitlab.torproject.org/ahf/lobby but i had no time last week to do anything on it
15:33:12 <gaba> Could we start a thread in the tor-internal@ or tor-project@ to talk about this lobby idea and see if anybody else have time to spend on it?
15:33:51 <gaba> your idea is to have a form and then a list of requests. And when we approve a request then you use gitlab api to create the account?
15:33:54 <anarcat> back
15:34:01 <ahf> i can have the user sign-up part ready this week. last time we talked about it we talked about having a user sign-up form ready before august
15:34:07 <ahf> that is a bit the info i have used to prioritize this
15:34:15 <ahf> correct gaba
15:34:24 <gaba> ok
15:34:33 <anarcat> one idea that was mentioned for anonymous contributions was to shift that over to discourse as well
15:34:33 <gaba> meanwhile we just create users for anybody asking for them.
15:34:37 <ahf> yep
15:34:46 <anarcat> and last that was discussed on tor-project (i think) it was generally well received (again)
15:34:53 <ahf> anarcat: yeah, that is why i think the first task i need to do is only the user sign-up
15:35:00 <anarcat> yeah
15:35:00 <ahf> since i have no idea where the discource discussion is at right now
15:35:08 <ahf> and i'm slightly ignoring it (i think it's a good idea though!)
15:35:23 <anarcat> i think the next step for discourse is to ask discoursehosting to set a real one up and start experimenting with tor-internal
15:35:30 <anarcat> but it's not on my plate
15:35:37 <anarcat> and i doubt hiro will have time to deal with it
15:35:43 <anarcat> i just wanted to surface that here :)
15:36:17 <ahf> i wont be able to take that on me either. the gitlab stuff takes less and less time each week, but i am also 2 weeks at least behind on some other stuff 8)
15:36:23 <gaba> the issue with discourse is that is just a forum for discussions
15:36:29 <gaba> we need people to contribute in other ways too
15:36:30 <ahf> maybe we wait with discource to we are back after the summer?
15:36:40 <ahf> i think a lot of people are going AFK soon for vacation?
15:36:44 <gaba> yes, we do not have capacity to take the discourse stuff
15:36:45 <ahf> on the northern hemisphere
15:36:55 <gaba> ggus will coordinate a discussion about it in the all hands this week though
15:37:00 <ahf> ah
15:37:01 <ahf> great
15:37:15 <anarcat> cool
15:37:26 <anarcat> the thing with discourse is we can just delegate hosting and admin to people like ggus
15:37:28 <gaba> anyway, this works for me. I was worry we are not creating accounts for people that want them
15:37:29 <ahf> so, we seem to agree to ignore that a bit for now and the important stuff is for users to be able to sign up?
15:37:36 <anarcat> yeah
15:37:37 <ahf> gaba: yep
15:37:39 <anarcat> makes sense
15:37:44 <gaba> anarcat: not so simple. ggus also does not have time for a lot more
15:37:52 <gaba> ahf: right
15:37:54 <ahf> gaba: i'll try to have a demo ready for us for the user-signup stuff then for tuesday next week
15:38:10 <gaba> ok. i'm fine with the decisions for now :)
15:38:14 <ahf> cool
15:38:37 <gaba> anything else?
15:38:44 <anarcat> yes
15:38:47 <anarcat> i want to talk about documentation
15:39:06 <gaba> anarcat: we can talk about wikis at other time when you are back. I created the gitlab wiki as a place to put the gitlab meeting notes... and linked your documentation
15:39:17 <gaba> still i think we should have documentation related to a project in the same project
15:39:19 <anarcat> so i would rather avoid duplicating wikis like this
15:39:28 <anarcat> well i wanted to talk about that too
15:39:34 <anarcat> right now we're using labels for services
15:39:38 <anarcat> and are not creating projects for all services
15:39:48 <anarcat> so it would mean the gitlab project would fold back under the main team issue queue
15:39:55 <anarcat> which means the wiki would fold in as well
15:40:09 <anarcat> so that's why i would prefer to avoid creating another wiki that would need to get merged
15:40:25 <anarcat> i am worried that if we create a gitlab wiki, we will have two sources of truth for the documentation
15:40:37 <gaba> i do not want to duplicate wikis
15:40:43 <gaba> but i also want people to find the information
15:40:43 <ahf> i'm sorry, i am a bit lost about this? is this something that have been discussed elsewhere?
15:40:52 <gaba> and not have to navigate a lot of stuff to understand where the ifnormation is
15:41:07 <gaba> ahf: not yet
15:41:08 <anarcat> ahf: the context is that i started documenting the gitlab migration and user stuff in https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/howto/gitlab/
15:41:15 <anarcat> but i noticed gaba created https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/wikis/home
15:41:17 <anarcat> which seems like a duplicate
15:41:27 <ahf> oh ok, i'm listening
15:41:35 <anarcat> and i want to resolve the duplicate :)
15:41:45 <ahf> ah one is in team and the other is in gitlab. i see
15:41:45 <gaba> there is no duplicate anarcat
15:41:50 <anarcat> ahf: there was also a discussion about moving the tpo/tpa/team issues into subprojects, which we seem to have decided against now
15:42:00 <anarcat> which would seem to imply that we move the gitlab project back under tpo/tpa/team
15:42:04 <gaba> but we have a gitlab project
15:42:08 <gaba> mmm
15:42:20 <gaba> we are not going to move the gitlab project into tpo/tpa/team any time soon I think
15:42:29 <anarcat> gaba: i find it frustrating to not have my concerns recognized
15:42:41 <anarcat> gaba: i have the feeling that having https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/gitlab/-/wikis/home and https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/howto/gitlab/ is a duplicate
15:42:45 <anarcat> now you can say it is not
15:42:48 <ahf> splitting up tpa/team is possible if we want to do that. i'm okay with that but i am not going to make the call for that. i own such a tiny fraction of things in there that i'm ok with either
15:42:50 <anarcat> but it doesn't help resolve my concern :)
15:43:01 <anarcat> okay
15:43:07 <gaba> what is your concern anarcat?
15:43:34 <anarcat> i am concerned that we will have two sources of truth for the documentation
15:43:46 <anarcat> i am also concerned to see all my work on the gitlab documentation be ignored and lost
15:43:59 <gaba> anarcat: that happens if we duplicate that information in one place and the other. That is not the case right now.
15:44:12 <anarcat> gaba: but it's bound to happen if there is a gitlab wiki
15:44:13 <gaba> anarcat: I promise not to ignore your documentation :)
15:44:17 <anarcat> okay
15:44:26 <anarcat> well i find the current situation confusing
15:44:33 <anarcat> with gitlab being this special snowflake
15:44:37 <anarcat> why doesn't gitolite have its own project?
15:44:50 <anarcat> i mean we have gitlab issues under tpo/tpa/team still
15:44:56 <anarcat> should those be moved inside the gitlab project?
15:45:12 <anarcat> i'm also not clear as to who's responsible for those tickets in the first place
15:45:42 <anarcat> but maybe i'm being too concerned about ticket management and documentation
15:46:00 <anarcat> i just feel i have been pushing that documentation wheel alone for weeks now
15:46:04 <ahf> but, do you think tpa/team should be split up?
15:46:09 <anarcat> so it's a bit confusing to see a new wiki pop up
15:46:17 <anarcat> without any discussion or announcement
15:46:19 <anarcat> i hope you understand
15:46:24 <anarcat> ahf: i honestly don't know anymore
15:46:42 <anarcat> ahf: i'm kind of okay with the labels right now, i was told there weren't too many labels and i came to accept that
15:46:49 <anarcat> so i find it confusing that we still need a gitlab project in that context
15:46:58 <anarcat> because it feels like a contradiction
15:47:17 <gaba> i couldnt find the documentation for gitlab this morning and was worry other people would not find it. I would thought it would be in the gitlab project. That is why i enabled a wiki in gitlab and added a link to your documentation there.
15:47:47 <anarcat> so the documentation for all services is in the team wiki of tpa
15:47:49 <anarcat> as we agreed
15:48:00 <gaba> anarcat: i understand your concenrs and i think we all have been extremly busy and whenever we have gitlab stable we can easily change how issues of gitlab and gitolite are managed. maybe when you come back
15:48:03 <ahf> hmmm, ok, i mean, i'm fine with merging gitlab into team and just have a label there
15:48:08 <ahf> i have no onion about that
15:48:09 <ahf> ugh
15:48:12 <anarcat> if you navigate to tpo / tpa, the homepage there is the wiki home, and it has a gitlab entry
15:48:12 <ahf> opinion, work damage
15:48:17 <gaba> i just do not think we should do it now
15:48:23 <gaba> im ok to have it wherever
15:48:28 <anarcat> okay
15:48:52 <gaba> if i go here it does not say anything on wikis: https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa
15:49:03 <anarcat> no
15:49:05 <anarcat> there is a team project
15:49:12 <anarcat> like there is in every other team
15:49:13 <gaba> and i thought the team projects were going to be only for wikis about the team/space
15:49:14 <anarcat> that has the wiki
15:49:30 <gaba> that is how we are doing it in other places
15:49:40 <anarcat> but the gitlab project is under the tpa team right now
15:49:50 <anarcat> maybe it should move out if you think it's not under the tpa umbrella?
15:49:56 <anarcat> anyways
15:50:02 <anarcat> i don't want to make a big fuss about this
15:50:13 <anarcat> it seems i'm having trouble bringing up issues and finding a common resolution
15:50:16 <gaba> yes, i think we should think about this later whenever we have more time for this
15:50:22 <hiro> hi, I have time to setup discourse if that's what we want
15:50:28 <anarcat> maybe what we could do is to take the user-facing documentation and move it out of the tpa wiki
15:50:28 <hiro> it's not like I have to do it
15:50:38 <hiro> I just have to send an email and ask the nice discourse people to help us
15:50:42 <anarcat> like everything in Tutorial and Howto in https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/tpa/team/-/wikis/howto/gitlab
15:50:50 <anarcat> sorry, i meant "move out to the gitlab wiki"
15:50:55 <ahf> i can see the thing with either we have all the services in one project or we have all the services as individual projects, not now where all the services minus gitlab and then gitlab as projects
15:51:28 <anarcat> yeep
15:51:31 <hiro> if we want discourse please open a ticket for me and I'll send the email tonight
15:51:40 <anarcat> anyways
15:51:50 <anarcat> as i said earlier, i don't have time to start new projects, i'm trying to wrap up
15:51:57 <anarcat> i was trying to identify what i think will be a problem
15:52:00 <anarcat> and will confuse users
15:52:15 <gaba> hiro: wait, we are having that discussion in all hands this wednesday
15:52:16 <anarcat> if no one is interested in fixing this right now, there's nothing more i can do
15:52:27 <anarcat> i can look into this again in october or something
15:52:37 <ahf> hiro: could we find a timeslot where we can look into the gitlab#41 thing? the network team folks are poking me about it
15:52:42 <ahf> maybe at some point tomorrow?
15:52:50 <hiro> yes ahf ok
15:52:57 <hiro> we can do trial and error tomorrow
15:52:59 <gaba> anarcat: i think we should look at it again in october
15:53:11 <anarcat> gaba: okay
15:53:30 <anarcat> gaba: may i ask where you plan on documenting the gitlab tickets you currently have?
15:53:42 <gaba> in your tpa documentation
15:53:45 <anarcat> okay
15:54:07 <anarcat> you can also take the user-facing documentation from the tpa wiki and move it to the gitlab wiki if you think that will make it easier to find
15:54:54 <gaba> i think it will be fine for now and i do not have so much capacity to move things
15:54:55 <anarcat> i'm done with my topic, sorry i brought it up
15:54:57 <gaba> im trying to prioritize
15:54:59 <ahf> hiro: any time that fits you best?
15:55:03 <gaba> no problem
15:55:12 <gaba> anything else? 4 min to the hour.
15:55:33 <ahf> i'm good, i know what to look at the next week
15:55:48 <gaba> sounds good
15:55:49 <anarcat> i might not be there next week at all
15:56:00 <anarcat> good luck with the gitlab maintenance!
15:56:13 <gaba> good luck anarcat this week!
15:56:19 <gaba> #endmeeting