13:59:35 <antonela> #startmeeting ux monthly sync
13:59:35 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Oct 13 13:59:35 2020 UTC.  The chair is antonela. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:59:35 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:59:42 <antonela> hello lovely people
13:59:49 <thurayya> helloo
13:59:54 <antonela> oi nah!
14:00:03 <thurayya> oie :)
14:01:24 <antonela> very nice, the ux team pad has been hacked and now is translated in Chinese? lovely
14:01:25 <antonela> https://pad.riseup.net/p/1D8sK8Zy74b_0qclC97I-ux-team-monthly-2020-keep
14:02:08 <dunqan> the meeting pad is all in japanese for me, for some reason :s
14:02:25 <antonela> japanese? i think is chinese
14:02:37 <antonela> phw could help us here? :)
14:02:58 <thurayya> localization act
14:03:01 <dunqan> ah yup it's chinese
14:03:09 <antonela> lovely
14:03:17 <antonela> let me see if the timeslider could help us here
14:03:42 <T0_7_> Hello all, happy to be here. Was in #tor-ux for a few minutes :)
14:04:18 <antonela> hi dunqan, hi T0_7_!
14:04:37 <dunqan> 👋
14:04:45 <antonela> okey, if you reload you should have the english version now
14:05:05 <antonela> (i'll include the chinese in the recap email anyways :)
14:05:42 <T0_7_> My OTF Fellowship ended last month. I want to say a big thank you to Phillip, Pili, Gaba, Nah,  Gus, Duncan, Thurayya, Isabela and the entire Tor team for their support
14:06:15 <antonela> yes! was a pleasure to share this year of research with you T0_7_ ❤️
14:06:34 <antonela> we got some comments in the blogpost, i think you handled them
14:06:34 <T0_7_> Thanks Antonela for being my biggest supporter
14:07:00 <dunqan> congrats on all your hard work T0_7_ !
14:07:01 <T0_7_> I have not. I will do so this week or next
14:07:02 <antonela> :)
14:07:03 <antonela> https://blog.torproject.org/icfp-otf-censored-continent
14:07:05 <thurayya> thanks for your great work T0_7_ :)))
14:07:05 <antonela> perfect
14:08:05 <antonela> so, the main announcement is the release of Tor Browser 10.0 a few weeks ago, we got some UI bugs fixed (thanks acat and sysrqb)
14:08:29 <antonela> and we will launch the 10.0 update for Tor Browser Android based on Fenix, today/tomorrow
14:09:01 <antonela> the work we did with Fenix was _huge_ and will help us to continue support Android users in the best shape
14:09:23 <antonela> for the curious, ux/ui design tickets are mainly listed here https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser/-/issues/33658
14:10:15 <thurayya> (pad is still in chinese for me)
14:10:30 <dunqan> well done, that's huge!
14:10:38 <dunqan> (also same re: the pad)
14:11:44 <antonela> mmm
14:12:29 <antonela> what about now?
14:12:36 <thurayya> ok!
14:12:39 <dunqan> fixed!
14:12:55 <antonela> super
14:13:22 <antonela> anything else announcements related for this month?
14:13:54 <antonela> i think we are groot
14:14:01 <thurayya> can i share
14:14:02 <thurayya> ops
14:14:04 <antonela> ohh
14:14:06 <antonela> go nah
14:14:08 <thurayya> hahaha
14:14:16 <antonela> sorry!
14:14:17 <thurayya> some of my findings in my last trip
14:14:22 <antonela> please do it
14:14:59 <thurayya> ok, so as many of you know, i'm a bertha fellow running digisec training and risk assessment for environmental activists and orgs in the Brazilian Amazon
14:15:29 <thurayya> I spent around 20 days in the Amazon last month working with 4 orgs and some communities
14:16:00 <thurayya> with one specific organization I stayed for 10 days and we could implement many tools and services in their day-to-day work-life
14:16:08 <thurayya> including TBD and TBA
14:16:57 <thurayya> they face many problems regarding their physical security
14:17:06 <thurayya> but i want to share specifics about their online security
14:17:31 <thurayya> one of them is that they don't have good access to internet - and sometimes they don't have any access
14:18:14 <thurayya> in the other hand, as they face many problems regarding their security, they were pretty excited about TBD and managed to work on it without problems
14:18:21 <thurayya> including using it for emails and social media
14:18:58 <antonela> that is great, were they first time users of tor browser desktop?
14:19:04 <thurayya> the only problem they had it's because some of the devices they use are old and it's hard to install some softwares in their devices
14:19:10 <thurayya> yes - first time at all!
14:19:26 <antonela> right, that is an issue
14:19:50 <thurayya> they didn't say that's tor slow, and it worked pretty well there
14:20:05 <thurayya> the only problem we had was finding tor broser for 32-bit computers
14:20:31 <antonela> i could imagine that the perceived performance was not bad given the regular connectivity conditions
14:20:33 <thurayya> because the first instinct is to click on "download" and then you get the 64-bit download
14:20:49 <thurayya> and it doesn't work, so you have to come back and look for the 32-bit version
14:21:03 <antonela> yes, and i think we have a ticket opened for it
14:21:07 * antonela goes to search
14:21:09 <thurayya> antonela, yes! i thought the same.
14:21:49 <thurayya> more specifics:
14:21:58 <thurayya> Tails: lack of localization to setup persistent volume; don’t really understand the poweroff and restart buttons.
14:22:04 <thurayya> Tor Browser and Onion Browser: the whole team is using iPhone. They were excited about using it, and it worked without problems. They don’t care about the “deep web” expression, as they are threatened and have a good understanding about human rights violations.
14:22:08 <thurayya> Their internet is already very slow, it seems they didn’t notice that tor is slow as well.
14:22:11 <thurayya> They said it’s hard to figure out which app to download from apple store, specially because there are many options with Tor+VPN.
14:22:47 * antonela here is the 64/32bits ticket https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/web/tpo/-/issues/87
14:22:50 <thurayya> and other services we used in the training was veracrypt, riseup-vpn and protonvpn (iphones) and signal
14:23:08 <T0_7_> There are also fake Tor apps online
14:23:13 <thurayya> thanks! gonna add my points there too
14:23:32 <thurayya> T0_7_: agreed!
14:23:33 <antonela> very good highlights thurayya; last week you also mentioned that they were using Briar for offline communications
14:23:35 <dunqan> yeah, the iOS app store's a nighmare
14:23:53 <antonela> T0_7_: yes and is a very expensive issue to handle with, we have been doing it manually
14:23:53 <thurayya> yes, some communities don't have any access to the Internet yet
14:24:06 <thurayya> so they use Briar to communicate and share files
14:24:25 <thurayya> mostly young ppl do it
14:24:28 <antonela> that made me think about to invite Briar folks to the next Tor Demo
14:24:36 <thurayya> it's like their "secret language"
14:24:40 * antonela https://briarproject.org/
14:24:50 <antonela> super cool
14:25:17 <thurayya> and in their case
14:25:28 <thurayya> they really need vpn to access public wifi
14:25:46 <thurayya> so we recommended riseup-vpn and protonvpn (for iphone)
14:26:37 <thurayya> and we are working on a blogpost about it too -- with some pictures, if possible!
14:26:41 <antonela> thurayya: lets include those highlights in the blogpost as well, so we can share it with other apps in the ecosystem
14:26:46 <antonela> yes! amazing
14:27:12 <thurayya> next month i'm going to the "Pantanal" to work on the same issue with other ppl
14:27:20 <josernitos> Hola @antonela + team! :)
14:27:30 <antonela> hey josernitos o/ welcome
14:27:53 <thurayya> and if there is something you think might be usefull to work on with them, it would be great to know
14:27:58 <thurayya> hola josernitos :)
14:28:05 <thurayya> antonela: yes!
14:28:15 <dunqan> this is super interesting thurayya, I would love to do a persona on an environmental activist
14:28:36 <dunqan> it was on our original list but we had more research at the time for other use cases
14:28:44 <thurayya> dunqan: amazing! i can share more specifics and detailed stuff with you :)
14:29:03 <dunqan> thanks!! let's do that sometime
14:29:11 <antonela> excellent
14:29:41 <antonela> thanks for sharing this experience thurayya
14:29:47 <josernitos> OT: I'm kind of new to IRC, what is the server for this? I'm using webchat.oftc.net, but i'm curious to use it on an app instead of the browser.
14:30:39 <antonela> josernitos: we can help you with it after the meeting, im using Limechat here but people loves irssi
14:31:11 <antonela> okey, lets move to the next item
14:31:28 <antonela> and im glad we have all this crew here because you have been involved with this project in different areas
14:32:34 <antonela> during our sponsor30 work (you can read more details in the pad) we have been working on researching and improving the use of tor browser in censored context
14:33:18 <antonela> tunde's research + our interviews with users in HK last month + the ones we will run with folks in india are documenting the user research part of this work
14:33:44 <antonela> but today, i want to share here the product design specifics about this project
14:33:46 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser-spec/-/issues/40004
14:33:53 <antonela> i hope you can open that issue
14:33:58 <antonela> i think everyone here has access to gitlab
14:34:08 <antonela> if you dont and you want, please ping me after the meeting
14:35:03 <antonela> what we are planning (both desktop and android) is making Tor Browser proactive in detecting network interferences and suggesting bridges to users instead of making users to manually add them
14:36:01 <antonela> this is a long term plan because requires a lot of pieces to ensemble together but if everything goes as expected, we will have a first iteration for this in Tor Browser 10.5 (june 2021) and another iteration at the end of 2021
14:36:57 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/applications/tor-browser-spec/-/merge_requests/7/diffs?commit_id=9a9ca3e3655bb522398ac3436fb3a6e5c1c25192
14:37:59 <thurayya> this is great, antonela! it sure will help first-time users that might be in a place where tor is censored
14:38:09 <antonela> here is the current proposal and I plan to email tbb-dev list to collect feedback from other folks in the community, specially devs who are boostrapping tor in their clients and could be interested on having this detection in their own apps
14:38:44 <antonela> there is a lot of text there, you can read later but let me show some userflows to make it fun
14:38:45 <antonela> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/anti-censorship/trac/-/issues/40004/designs/Desktop-UI.png
14:39:42 <antonela> the major changes are easy to resume: we want to remove tor launcher ui (that windows that prompts everytime you open the browser)
14:40:58 <antonela> we want to take over the entire start page, ask users' consent for automatic connections, detect censorship during the bootstrapping, suggest a bridge with one click if is needed and connect
14:41:52 <antonela> im going low on details sharing this but is intentional: i want to document the user experience we want to achieve, so developers can discuss what is the best way to approach the technology we have available to reach that ux
14:42:59 <antonela> specially with circumvention tools, the technical stack changes so quickly (the censor has new techniques, pluggable transports develop new ways to handle them, and the game does not stop)
14:43:38 <antonela> my plan is trying to offer a ux that can be flexible enough to iterate in the background but keep persistent in the UI so users doesnt need to learn new things every time
14:43:43 <antonela> and i'll stop talking
14:43:46 <antonela> :)
14:44:14 <dunqan> this all looks amazing anto
14:44:22 <antonela> i'd be super happy if all of you can comment on the ticket/mailinglist/MR whatever makes you happy. Every input from each of you will be relevant for moving this forward
14:44:53 <antonela> TBA https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/anti-censorship/trac/-/issues/40004/designs/Mobile-UI.png
14:45:40 <antonela> thanks thurayya and dunqan, this was more about to collect old tickets, summarize issues and trying to organize what we can safely expose from users and what not
14:46:17 <antonela> that is why consent and clear explainers of what we are doing is critical for users to understand what is happening under the hood, and we dont need super technical wording to explain that
14:47:12 <thurayya> spec because many users are not technical, and don't speak english
14:47:33 <thurayya> so keeping as simple as possible is great
14:48:08 <antonela> yes, simple and safe is the horizon, but is hard too
14:48:34 <dunqan> do you want any feedback/suggestions in the comments for #40004, or as new issues?
14:48:45 <antonela> you can comment on 40004
14:48:51 <dunqan> sure thing
14:48:52 <antonela> this proposal is on draft right now
14:48:58 <dunqan> gotcha
14:49:22 <antonela> so next step i think is sharing with the lists, collect more feedback and work to make it accepted? i think that is the flow
14:49:25 <antonela> :)
14:51:05 <antonela> again, feel free to comment in the ticket so i can work on including that feedback in the upcoming weeks
14:51:17 <antonela> aaand, that is all on bridges, any questions about it?
14:52:42 <thurayya> i'll take some time to have a better look and comment there. thanks, anto!
14:53:09 <antonela> thanks for reading all the thing :)
14:53:14 <antonela> dunqan: are you next?
14:53:28 <dunqan> yes, we only have 5 mins right?
14:54:10 <antonela> YES
14:54:15 <antonela> (sorry)
14:54:19 <antonela> i just saw your name in hte pad
14:54:23 <dunqan> i'll be quick haha
14:54:37 <dunqan> here's the WIP canvas for the anti-censorship personas: https://www.figma.com/file/bLOmIF32ijnaAS34AtwEWD/Tor-Personas?node-id=78%3A857
14:55:22 <antonela> amazing, i've been working on the narrative
14:55:29 <antonela> i'll share it with you soon
14:55:36 <dunqan> antonela: I think last time we spoke you were going to catch up with gus about the possibility of reaching out to the sudanese working group? Is that correct?
14:55:46 <dunqan> I've held off on that one for now
14:55:48 <antonela> yes, but instead we did HK
14:55:52 <dunqan> gotcha
14:55:55 <antonela> and we are going to do India
14:56:01 <antonela> i'll update you on those things as well
14:56:05 <antonela> (things happened :)
14:56:25 <antonela> josernitos: do you want to introduce yourself in two lines and share what you will be doing?
14:56:36 <dunqan> I also need to read tunde's excellent work in more detail and incorporate changes as required
14:56:53 <antonela> dunqan: yes, i have a highlighted one, i'll pass it to you
14:56:59 <dunqan> ty
14:57:15 <dunqan> is there a successor ticket for #31282 by the way?
14:57:57 <T0_7_> Thanks for reflecting some of my work on the personas - Cameroon shutdowns, refugees
14:58:19 <T0_7_> Also nice seeing a Nigerian there too
14:58:39 <josernitos> Sure. I'm a UX designer from Costa Rica. I'm trying to contact communities here to support them and talk about privacy, anonimity, etc. and in return I can do small ux research w/ them.
14:58:47 <antonela> T0_7_: yes! your work is documenting our work there
14:59:00 <dunqan> no prob, thank you T0_7_ !
14:59:18 <dunqan> nice to meet you josernitos :)
14:59:38 <antonela> josernitos: super nice, you and thurayya should talk! :)
15:00:02 <antonela> okey folks, we are up the hour and there are other meetings going on here
15:00:06 * phw saw his name highlighted. reading backlog
15:00:07 <antonela> thank you so much for joining us today!
15:00:23 <josernitos> nice to meet you all :)
15:00:26 <thurayya> o/
15:00:37 <antonela> phw: we got the pad hacked in Chinese, maybe you can read it :)
15:00:40 <antonela> thanks!!
15:00:43 <antonela> #endmeeting