16:00:06 <GeKo> #startmeeting network-health 08/23/2021
16:00:06 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Aug 23 16:00:06 2021 UTC.  The chair is GeKo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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16:00:12 <irl[m]> hi
16:00:18 <GeKo> hello everyone to another weekly network-health meeting
16:00:21 <ggus> hihi :)
16:00:34 <GeKo> we need to improvise a bit as riseup has issues
16:00:35 <irl[m]> i have failed to put my notes in to the pad
16:00:38 <jnewsome> o/
16:00:42 <GeKo> and our pad is down
16:01:15 <GeKo> so, i think we just start by stuff folks want to bring up
16:01:31 <GeKo> irl[m]: you mentioned the remaining things you should prioritize, right?
16:01:42 <irl[m]> my updates would be: i've worked on bridgestrap/onionoo (got a working patch but can't test it live yet until bridgestrap produces some metrics, which should happen today) and done reviews
16:01:57 <GeKo> does https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/-/issues?scope=all&utf8=%E2%9C%93&state=opened&assignee_username=irl&label_name[]=Doing cover all you have on your radar?
16:02:03 <GeKo> irl[m]: thanks, sounds good
16:02:07 <irl[m]> hiro has been doing releases and deployments without my assistance and nothing exploded
16:02:14 <GeKo> \o/
16:02:21 <irl[m]> either my documentation was sufficient or it was an intuitive process anyway
16:02:33 <GeKo> both, no? :)
16:02:47 <hiro> docs were good thanks irl[m]
16:03:20 <irl[m]> i think the survival guide for the website is possible, but i did not get through all the health checks and probably won't before the end of my contract
16:03:50 <irl[m]> there has been a lot of time lost on bridgestrap, just bad timing really, and i've had to work around things to be able to develop the patch
16:04:15 <GeKo> we are done with that and things are fine?
16:05:07 <hiro> Ok i lost internet at home
16:05:23 <irl[m]> there will be stats produced later today if all goes well, and then the patch will hopefully work first time and we can then release and deploy it and it's done, leaving me 1.5 days for the website docs
16:05:57 <hiro> I meant to say I plan to get ahead with all my website tickets this week so maybe I might be able to help you with docs @irl[m]
16:06:06 <GeKo> irl[m]: okay
16:06:29 <hiro> ok seems I am back
16:06:31 <GeKo> in general i am fine with everything that hiro thinks would be most helpful for her
16:06:33 <irl[m]> yeah if you have specific questions and i can write the things you need rather than trying to write everything, that would be most helpful for you
16:07:12 <GeKo> so, i leave it to hiro for how you could spend your remaining time
16:07:12 <hiro> irl[m]: generally speaking there are "hidden" parts in metrics-lib and maybe also the metrics-website that I haven't had time yet to dig into
16:07:34 <irl[m]> https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/network-health/team/-/wikis/metrics/Website i did put some very broad overview in there already
16:08:03 <hiro> these are for example the differential privacy part for onion statistics
16:08:17 <hiro> and some of the R processing side on the website
16:08:29 <irl[m]> ah ok so we document these in either technical reports or on the website itself
16:08:29 <hiro> I am not sure you know those parts well to dump some docs about them
16:08:42 <irl[m]> the R code is self-contained entirely in one file really, so i can explain how that works
16:08:48 <hiro> ok so I will dig into those
16:09:10 <irl[m]> https://www.tidyverse.org/ is the collection of R packages we like
16:09:42 <irl[m]> and i believe you'll have access to the o'reilly book referenced on that website
16:10:05 <hiro> yep I have
16:10:38 <hiro> I have unlimited oreilly yet
16:10:40 <hiro> I mean sitll
16:10:52 <GeKo> great
16:11:00 <GeKo> irl[m]: do you think we are good from you pov?
16:11:13 <GeKo> (with figuring out your last week)
16:11:23 <GeKo> (and what to focus on)
16:11:48 <irl[m]> as gaba has been moving tickets around i have been leaving comments on them
16:12:07 <irl[m]> i think things have been going well, i'm not handing over a disaster, and hiro has figured out things quickly
16:12:27 <irl[m]> so yeah, i think things are good
16:12:36 <GeKo> great
16:12:52 <GeKo> and, yes, those comments on the tickets are much appreciated
16:12:58 <hiro> yes thanks
16:13:05 <GeKo> given how little historical context i/we have
16:13:13 <GeKo> okay
16:13:23 <GeKo> ggus: you had some items to dicuss, iirc?
16:13:28 <ggus> GeKo: yes
16:13:33 <GeKo> let's go :)
16:13:36 <ggus> docshackathon and ticket triage
16:13:54 <ggus> next week we will have the 3rd edition of the docs hackathon
16:14:01 <ggus> or just the Tor DocsHackathon
16:14:29 <ggus> and i want to check if there are net-health tickets that volunteers could work
16:15:02 <GeKo> yeah. i mistakenly assumed it was something like the hackathon we did as devs last week, sorry for that :)
16:15:33 <GeKo> but i got excited enough that i went over the tickets and added the Documentation label on any of them where we need som kind of documentation
16:15:37 <GeKo> https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/network-health/-/issues?scope=all&state=opened&label_name[]=Documentation
16:16:00 <GeKo> *some* of those tickets could be done by volunteers, too
16:16:14 <GeKo> even though most of them are for devs to figure out
16:16:51 <GeKo> ggus: i could go over them and add the docshackathon label if you make it global?
16:17:04 <ggus> i don't know what's the process of creating new labels. cc gaba
16:17:25 <GeKo> and then we'd get some nethealth doc tickets, too, for the hackathon
16:17:33 <ggus> but, adding docshackathon label works for me
16:18:02 <GeKo> okay. i'll let gaba create the label
16:18:03 <ggus> i think at the moment docshackathon label only exist on tpo/web repositories
16:18:09 <GeKo> yeah
16:18:25 <GeKo> and then i'll go over the list tag tickets accordingly and ping you that i am ready
16:18:36 <ggus> cool! sounds good!
16:18:43 <GeKo> oh, and i am happy to help during the hackathon if needed
16:18:55 <GeKo> is #torwww the channel to use?
16:19:02 <GeKo> even for nethealth stuff?
16:19:18 <ggus> yes, we're using #tor-www for web stuff and for the hackathon
16:19:39 <GeKo> okay. i'll be there then for that time
16:19:41 <GeKo> thanks
16:20:32 <GeKo> ggus: what was the triage part you mentioned or was that hackathon related?
16:20:47 <ggus> it was hackathon related
16:20:54 <gaba> yes, we can create a new label
16:21:12 <ggus> to use the docshackathon label
16:21:23 <gaba> you had it in community, right?
16:21:26 * gaba looking
16:21:29 <GeKo> in general i could see fixing up the applications-team wiki as something volunteers could do
16:21:36 <GeKo> at least for some parts
16:21:39 <ggus> gaba: i guess only in web group
16:21:50 <gaba> in
16:21:50 <gaba> The Tor Project / Community
16:21:51 <ggus> GeKo: yes, i was thinking about that too.
16:21:56 <gaba> you want it in tpo?
16:22:00 <ggus> yes
16:22:03 <gaba> ok
16:22:23 <GeKo> so, yes, the hackathon should not be a website only thing but could be useful for a bunch of groups
16:22:35 <GeKo> but, either way it's a very nice idea :)
16:22:51 <GeKo> ggus: while you are here: how are our EOL relays plans?
16:22:59 <GeKo> should we try to get things going?
16:23:06 <GeKo> or after the hackathon?
16:23:22 <ggus> we can start discussing today
16:23:46 <GeKo> woah, ookay :)
16:24:17 <GeKo> i think step one could be figuring out what relays are eol
16:24:25 <GeKo> then we try to contact folks like we did last time
16:24:36 <GeKo> to get them to upgrade/update
16:24:52 <GeKo> then we need to figure out what to do about those that don't
16:25:00 <GeKo> or whom we can't reach
16:25:26 <GeKo> i guess for that group we need to figure out whether the versions they are on have known sec-vulns
16:25:29 <ggus> and is it only relays or are we going to reach out to bridges operators too?
16:25:31 <GeKo> and if so we kick them out
16:25:42 <GeKo> ideally bridge ones, too, i think
16:25:48 <irl[m]> the problem with bridge operators is that contact info is discarded
16:25:59 <irl[m]> we can get at it, but it's never been public
16:26:08 <GeKo> aha, hrm
16:26:09 <irl[m]> this could be the first time those contactinfos have been used
16:26:21 <irl[m]> we've had many debates about this
16:26:55 <ggus> TIL.
16:27:01 <GeKo> me too :)
16:27:11 <GeKo> well, we can keep thinking a bit about that point
16:27:17 <irl[m]> collector sanitises the bridge descriptors, and one of those things is just deleting the contactinfo line
16:27:25 <irl[m]> we discussed hashing it, or just keeping it there
16:27:33 <GeKo> talking to the anti-censorship folks and arma once he is back
16:27:38 <irl[m]> in the end we couldn't come up with a good enough justification for changing what we were doing
16:27:55 <irl[m]> compared to potential risk of "hey this thing that was secret is now public, surprise!"
16:27:55 <GeKo> irl[m]: is there some ticket that summarizes that discussion?
16:28:04 <GeKo> right
16:28:07 <irl[m]> it'd be in trac, i'll make a note to find it
16:28:13 <GeKo> thanks
16:28:36 <GeKo> ggus: anyway, that's been roughly my plan so far
16:28:53 <GeKo> i can try writing it down properly and we can use that then to shape the final policy
16:29:12 <GeKo> i am open to doing something else, though
16:29:37 <GeKo> we likely need some new tooling, too
16:30:01 <GeKo> e.g. for figuring out all the tor versions with sec vulns which are currently out there
16:30:30 <GeKo> but no need to block on that imo
16:30:31 <ggus> yeah, at least a spreadsheet with some columns like contactinfo | contacted (yes/no) | upgraded (yes/no)
16:30:53 <ggus> because only email is hard to track.
16:31:05 <GeKo> right
16:31:14 <GeKo> that's actually a good point
16:31:29 <GeKo> (which i would have missed as i am not a spreadsheet guy ;))
16:31:29 <ggus> GeKo: do you have an estimation of how many relays are EOL? ~500?
16:31:29 <irl[m]> it'd be good to get stats afterwards too
16:31:39 <irl[m]> to see if this is a worthwhile thing to do, or to judge strategies
16:31:39 <GeKo> irl[m]: right
16:31:47 <GeKo> good point
16:32:12 <GeKo> ggus: at least
16:32:22 <GeKo> i remember writing a *ton* of mails last time
16:32:32 <GeKo> i hit riseup's sending limits :)
16:32:43 <GeKo> and that was only for those relays we had contact info
16:32:48 <ggus> eheh!
16:32:49 <gaba> and how many bridges are EOL...
16:32:58 <irl[m]> tor weather maybe used to do this for you?
16:33:00 <GeKo> who knows...
16:33:01 <hiro> it won't be fun though to have to check all the contacts that replied in the spreadsheet
16:33:21 <GeKo> irl[m]: yep, once it is back one of these days
16:33:28 <hiro> you mean EOL for tor version?
16:33:39 <hiro> I can filter that out in grafana
16:34:47 <GeKo> yeah, i think i have scripts for that, too.
16:35:15 * hiro write a notes to share access to the grafana dashboard once riseup smtp is back
16:35:27 <GeKo> right, thanks
16:35:41 <GeKo> ggus: do you feel we are good for the eol item?
16:35:58 <ggus> let's think about a timeline for this
16:36:20 <GeKo> for eol pinging in general or for this instance?
16:36:34 <ggus> for eol pinging
16:36:48 <GeKo> heh, yes
16:37:28 <GeKo> what i meant was
16:37:56 <GeKo> for this particular time or more genereally a timeline in our policy
16:37:57 <GeKo> ?
16:38:17 <GeKo> (like once tor x.x.x is reaching eol we starting pinging X weeks afterwards or so)
16:38:46 <GeKo> *generally
16:39:09 <ggus> i was thinking about this particular time hahah
16:39:32 <GeKo> k. but that reminds me to add something to the policy about the general case
16:39:37 <ggus> for the policy, i think we should have a timeline, but i don't know what's the time interval we should use
16:39:44 <GeKo> yeah
16:39:56 <GeKo> we could probably look at general update patterns
16:40:21 <GeKo> and then pick a time after the usual folks updated their relays
16:41:21 <GeKo> okay, but this time
16:42:09 <ggus> this year we have the special event of a debian release (debian 11). i don't know if people will delay their SO upgrades and how that impacts on tor.
16:42:37 <GeKo> right
16:43:15 <GeKo> we could get started, though, and learn things while we are going
16:43:36 <irl[m]> seems like looking at the web logs for deb.torproject.org would give insights
16:43:36 <GeKo> what about trying in the week after the hackathon?
16:43:55 <ggus> GeKo: to start contacting relay operators?
16:43:59 <GeKo> yes
16:44:15 <ggus> wfm!
16:45:04 <GeKo> okay, let's aim for that and sync on 09/06 whether this is still a good idea?
16:45:16 <GeKo> and meanwhile i try to make progress on the eol policy
16:45:25 <ggus> kk
16:45:28 <GeKo> including what we brought up today
16:45:43 <GeKo> thanks
16:46:02 <GeKo> that's all what i was aware of, i think
16:46:13 <GeKo> anything else we should discuss today?
16:46:51 <ggus> i'm good
16:47:49 <GeKo> alright, it seems we made it :) thanks everyone for being here and have a nice week
16:47:53 <GeKo> #endmeeting