16:59:26 <donuts> #startmeeting UX Team Weekly Meeting
16:59:26 <MeetBot> Meeting started Tue Mar 29 16:59:26 2022 UTC.  The chair is donuts. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:59:26 <MeetBot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:59:30 <donuts> here we gooo
16:59:33 <championquizzer> hello o/
16:59:35 <donuts> hi emmapeel!
16:59:36 <nicob> hi o/
16:59:47 <donuts> pad is here, as always: https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-ux-team-2022-keep
17:00:16 <nah> o/
17:00:25 <donuts> please add any items you'd like to discuss to the agenda
17:00:58 <donuts> otherwise, there's just one quick announcement this week: 11.5a8 for desktop was released on the 23rd
17:01:19 <donuts> nothing exciting there besides the V3 onion service client auth fix getting patched to alpha (it already made its way to stable)
17:01:28 <championquizzer> nice!
17:01:53 <donuts> however the next desktop alpha (11.5a10) should hopefully have some of the applications team's work on censorship circumvention included :D
17:01:58 <donuts> eta: mid-late April
17:02:07 <donuts> (oops sorry eta)
17:02:10 * eta — mid-late April
17:02:13 <donuts> lol
17:02:14 <championquizzer> lol
17:02:30 <donuts> next up: please take a few mins to update the weekly planning section of the pad
17:02:51 <donuts> as always, remember to highlight any items you'd like to discuss in **bold**
17:03:14 <donuts> and take a moment to make sure your tickets in the team kanban are in the right columns, and assigned to the right people :)
17:03:26 <donuts> https://gitlab.torproject.org/groups/tpo/-/boards?scope=all&label_name[]=UX%20Team
17:04:48 <nah> done
17:05:05 <nicob> also done
17:05:39 <donuts> lovely, I don't see anything else changing
17:06:03 <donuts> just one thing in bold from me by the looks of it
17:06:11 <donuts> "Sync with Nah about potential UR for snowflake-dot (e.g. testing terms to replace/supplant/clarify "clinet" vs "proxy") in Q2"
17:06:33 <nah> :)
17:06:43 <donuts> So this just came up in the Sponsor 96 meeting – apparently we're seeing a lot of proxies in places where proxies aren't very useful (e.g. Russia)
17:07:12 <donuts> the team are assuming it's the same pattern we've observed elsewhere (e.g. in the Africa meetup) of users confusing the browser extension for a circumvention tool
17:07:22 <nah> interesting
17:07:28 <donuts> I know we talked about reviewing this page and conducting some light UR as part of the S9 extension
17:07:48 <donuts> but given the above it would be super super great if we could squeeze it in earlier as part of S96
17:08:22 <donuts> we'll need to have a think about the potential changes and research format, but expect some design/content amends to snowflake.torproject.org
17:08:24 <nah> how much earlier?
17:08:49 <donuts> it would also be good to test alternatives to the terms client vs proxy, since those are overly technical (i.e. user and provider, or user and relay etc.)
17:09:11 <donuts> nah: Q2 if possible (I can do the bulk of the upfront work but we'll keep it really really light) or Q3 if not
17:09:24 <donuts> I'm thinking like a 5 minute activity to piggyback on existing UR sessions
17:09:28 <donuts> nothing fancy
17:10:16 <donuts> I appreciate we already have a million things on, I'm just concerned about this situation getting worse considering snowflake's sudden growth/relevance
17:10:26 <nah> yep
17:10:52 <donuts> it could be something sweetcurator could help out with too perhaps 👀
17:10:56 <donuts> 🙏
17:10:57 <nah> i think it's possible. we can also use some part of the latam and east africa meetup for an exercise about this
17:11:09 <nah> yes! :)
17:11:09 <donuts> ah yes good idea
17:11:36 <donuts> okay have a think and we can sync about it again later (probably after we've got the Q1 reports out of the way)
17:11:41 <donuts> thanks nah :)
17:11:49 <nah> perfect, thanks donuts
17:11:57 * donuts checks the pad...
17:12:10 <donuts> championquizzer, you're up!
17:12:16 <championquizzer> yes!
17:13:24 <championquizzer> so we learnt that there many telegram channels / mirror websites which are distributing Tor binaries in .ru
17:13:47 <donuts> legit tor binaries?
17:13:49 <championquizzer> of course, our recommendation is to always dl from our wesbite and official mirrors
17:14:08 <championquizzer> donuts: some sites are fine but we cannot be sure about _all_ of them
17:14:24 <donuts> got it, makes sense
17:14:33 <championquizzer> hence, we added a new template to our support channels on how to verify TB's signature
17:14:42 <championquizzer> and communicating that with more and more users
17:15:14 <championquizzer> but yes, the recommendation is still to dl only from sources (mirrors) we share
17:15:55 <championquizzer> i have still kept fenix#40212 on the pad although we have got less reports in last week
17:16:08 <donuts> oh, interesting
17:16:14 <donuts> a lot less?
17:16:16 <championquizzer> assuming, we got our message out there and the workaround is working for users :)
17:16:25 <championquizzer> yeah donuts
17:17:05 <donuts> I see the OP chimed in last week too
17:17:11 <championquizzer> yep
17:17:18 <donuts> this was the issue we were hoping would resolve itself once we caught up with mozilla, right?
17:17:34 <donuts> "Sadly, it seems likely that waiting until release 11.0.10 ships with Fenix v99 is likely the fastest way to resolve the issue"
17:17:35 <donuts> aha yes
17:17:46 <championquizzer> yep, i think the target is to have this resolved by 11.0.10
17:18:09 <donuts> looks like there's some helpful new info in the ticket as well
17:18:16 <donuts> okay fingers crossed for 11.0.10
17:18:30 <donuts> thank you for getting the workarounds out there in the meantime championquizzer!
17:18:49 <championquizzer> ok, that's all for the updates. :)
17:19:18 <donuts> awesome, thanks championquizzer!
17:19:28 <emmapeel> oops sorry i am late
17:19:40 <championquizzer> emmapeel: o/
17:19:46 <donuts> hehe np emmapeel, how are you?
17:19:56 <nah> hola emmapeel
17:20:01 <emmapeel> ey there! i am good! i came to the meeting because i want to consult you in a thing
17:20:19 <donuts> go for it! we're at the end of the agenda anyway :)
17:20:49 <emmapeel> so, the Bangla translators want to transliterate Tor Browser when they write it in Bangla.
17:21:03 <emmapeel> so, it will look different, but it will sound like Tor Browser
17:21:12 <emmapeel> maybe championquizzer can show how it will look
17:22:05 <donuts> gotcha, so it'll be in bengali script instead of latin?
17:22:18 <championquizzer> তোর ব্ব্রাউসার
17:22:32 <emmapeel> donuts: yes
17:22:35 <emmapeel> thanks championquizzer !
17:22:40 <donuts> <3
17:23:14 <emmapeel> there is not a clear word for browser in bangla, so the term 'browser' is also transliterated
17:23:55 <emmapeel> so, i wanted the UX team to agree on this :D so i can add it to our Language translation accords :D
17:24:34 <emmapeel> this is not the first language that asks for this, and unsurprisingly this happens to languages that have a different character set than english.
17:24:46 <donuts> so at the moment we let the individual l10n teams decide if they want to keep "Tor Browser" or translate it, right?
17:25:11 <emmapeel> well, is not that we let them, but we want to establish accords about translation
17:25:18 <donuts> yes sorry :)
17:25:36 <donuts> but they have two options atm, and this would add a third option for transliteration instead?
17:25:39 <emmapeel> what the translators say is that it is hard for people that is not used to latin chars to read our name
17:26:34 <emmapeel> in general, we try to force Tor somewhere, maybe in parenthesis
17:26:40 <donuts> I see
17:27:08 <donuts> do you think it would be good to do something similar when transliterated?
17:27:22 <emmapeel> one way will be to add (Tor Browser) in the first occurence, but then when you are translating you dont know if it is the first occurrence
17:28:16 <nah> it will be similar to ka, then?
17:28:51 <emmapeel> i think it will be good to transliterate, i am a born again transliterator. i used to think it was not so important but so many translators tell me and in my opinion it is true, i mean, the word is not changing, is only other letters
17:28:59 <emmapeel> nah: yeah, exactly
17:29:04 <donuts> I think ka is doing Tor-[browser in ka]
17:29:34 <emmapeel> yes, they may be. but they didnt started a 'translation accord' process, so we are not talking about that. but it happens in more languages for sure
17:29:34 <nah> donuts: yep, true
17:29:37 <emmapeel> in Persian as well
17:29:52 <donuts> yeah it sounds like a very reasonable request
17:30:11 <donuts> especially if it's came up with other langs before
17:30:17 <emmapeel> imagine if you were reading a text and chinese characters will appear in the middle of the text
17:30:27 <emmapeel> yeah, you maybe learned the chars, but it wil lmake it hard to read
17:30:54 <nah> good point
17:31:06 <donuts> absolutely, do you think following it with "(Tor Browser)" will be possible or still jarring?
17:31:07 <emmapeel> and what we mostly translate is documentation. so we should make it easier to translate. maybe we could also have some documents when we say 'please do not change this'
17:31:18 <donuts> also sorry – I didn't quite understand your point about first vs second instances
17:31:47 <emmapeel> donuts: i meant, in a page when you read it. to have the first time (tor), and then not anymore
17:34:08 <donuts> hmm I still don't understand, sorry
17:34:30 <donuts> oh wait
17:34:32 <donuts> maybe I do
17:34:41 <nah> i guess if you read a webpage that says tor browser, it will transliterate the first ime with (tor) followed
17:34:57 <nah> but only this first time
17:35:03 <nah> is that right, emmapeel?
17:35:03 <donuts> ohhh I seee
17:35:12 <emmapeel> yeah, sorry i talk like a cow
17:35:21 <emmapeel> :)
17:35:38 <donuts> no no my bad
17:35:40 <emmapeel> but it is difficult for a translator to have this present when translating!
17:35:45 <emmapeel> it is not easy to do
17:35:59 <emmapeel> it adds a lot of calculation to the process
17:36:01 <donuts> I was reading "first occurrence" but my brain wasn't processing it properly :P
17:36:12 <donuts> I understand now
17:36:46 <donuts> and doing every occurrence would be annoying for the reader?
17:36:47 <emmapeel> yeah, well, that is how we are when translating as well. then maybe when you are reviewing it, on the preview site, you can see that well, you added (tor) twice
17:37:06 <emmapeel> yeah, doing every time will be super ugly and sometimes breaks the page as well
17:37:09 <emmapeel> especially in RTL
17:37:11 <donuts> right
17:37:15 <emmapeel> (the other side)
17:37:33 <donuts> it would be nice if we could hide it in a tooltip hehe
17:37:49 <emmapeel> hmm
17:38:12 <donuts> that wouldn't work in the product though
17:38:22 <donuts> and I guess even if it's mostly for web we should adopt a platform agnostic solution
17:38:29 <emmapeel> for me, personally i like it, because then when i am reviewing a page, i know kinda what they are talking about
17:38:42 <emmapeel> but the bangla translation is not for me :D
17:38:49 <donuts> the first occurrence idea sounds perfect besides the headaches it causes during translation :/
17:38:54 <emmapeel> is for people that speaks Bangla and speaks bad English
17:39:05 <nah> +1 donuts
17:39:33 <donuts> would that be okay emmapeel? could we try it for bangla at least?
17:39:42 <donuts> (the first occurrence method)
17:40:22 <emmapeel> that is the default setup and what i ask everybody to do, but the Bangla translators said they like better this way
17:40:50 <emmapeel> there is also the option to translate 'Browser', and for example in Spanish we say 'Navegador Tor'
17:41:19 <nah> so, what they are asking is to remove any latin ocurrence (even if it only once)?
17:41:32 <donuts> Sorry I mean bangla can still transliterate if it's followed by "Tor Browser" in latin in the first instance, and then continue to transliterate every instance thereafter
17:41:33 <nah> s/it/it is
17:41:39 <nah> aah ok
17:41:51 <donuts> or "(Tor Browser)" more accurately
17:43:02 <donuts> So "তোর ব্ব্রাউসার  (Tor Browser)" then "তোর ব্ব্রাউসার" thereafter
17:43:05 <emmapeel> nah: yeah, basically to remove most of the Latin char occurences
17:43:41 <nah> well, that sounds good to me
17:44:32 <emmapeel> donuts: they _could_ but in the practice is hard
17:44:43 <donuts> yeah :/
17:44:52 <emmapeel> to know if you are translating the first Tor Browser of the page, or not
17:45:45 <donuts> I wonder if complete transliteration (i.e. no latin) could hurt search, but it depends on whether or not speakers of the language are searching for brand terms in latin or not
17:46:09 <donuts> i.e. how would a bangla speaker currently search for "download tor browser"?
17:46:11 <emmapeel> there will also be the links, the TLD...
17:46:37 <donuts> yeah
17:46:48 <emmapeel> i think in google they have a table with Tor Browser == "তোর ব্ব্রাউসার
17:47:21 <donuts> oh it's returning EN currently
17:47:25 <donuts> so you must be right
17:47:38 <donuts> okay so that's not a concern then
17:47:48 <emmapeel> while testing for Tails, maybe times i go in a Russian or other lang keyboard layout, and i just write as if it were in english. and it works
17:50:43 <donuts> I still think it would be good to encourage a first occurrence pattern if possible, if only to make the connection between the transliteration and the latin (as used in the URL etc.)
17:51:18 <donuts> if that proves too difficult though then full transliteration seems fine (given it's seemingly not hurting search)
17:51:23 <donuts> unless I'm missing anything else?
17:51:43 <emmapeel> well, it has proved difficult enough for the translators to propose this other thing...
17:52:21 <donuts> ha yeah
17:52:32 <emmapeel> i hope that it the case that this brings a confusion, the translators will add it, of course
17:52:55 <donuts> I'm assuming the same rule would apply to other proper nouns/brands too
17:52:58 <donuts> like Windows etc.
17:53:05 <emmapeel> donuts: could you please then express your opinion in https://forum.torproject.net/t/proposal-bengali-bangla-transliterate-tor-browser/742/6 ?
17:53:19 <donuts> okay will do, thanks for bringing this up emmapeel!
17:53:32 <emmapeel> in general, the answer given by lawyers is 'is a brand, not translatable'
17:53:33 <donuts> I'm putting this on the pad hehe
17:53:47 <donuts> yeah
17:54:02 <donuts> it's also something we could run past comms again
17:54:30 <donuts> I'll check in to see what they say
17:54:45 <donuts> and then update the forum thread :)
17:55:32 * donuts has added it to his todo list
17:55:43 <donuts> okay we're almost at the hour, is there anything else team?
17:55:43 <emmapeel> thanks!
17:55:52 <donuts> no, thank you emmapeel!
17:56:19 <donuts> I'm not hearing anything so I'm going to close the meeting
17:56:23 <donuts> thanks everyone for coming today!
17:56:26 <nah> thank you all!
17:56:26 <championquizzer> thanks all o/
17:56:28 <donuts> have a good week :D
17:56:30 <nicob> thanks all!
17:56:35 <donuts> #endmeeting