15:06:08 <dan_b> #startmeeting Tor Browser Weekly Meeting 2023-07-10
15:06:08 <MeetBot> Meeting started Mon Jul 10 15:06:08 2023 UTC.  The chair is dan_b. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
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15:06:21 <Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m]> Hi!
15:06:24 <dan_b> Browser team weekly meeting Go!
15:06:35 <dan_b> everyone wnat to update their pads?
15:06:36 <dan_b> https://pad.riseup.net/p/tor-tbb-keep
15:08:30 <ma1> yes, thank you dan_b for facilitating! #reduceBeachFactor
15:10:17 <henry-x> So I'm going to be away for two weeks after this week, so if you want anything from me ask me soon!
15:10:28 <dan_b> 👍
15:10:47 <dan_b> Ok looks like pad editing is winding down
15:10:57 <PieroV> henry-x: I'd like to get the new circuit display backend before the new tor controller implementation
15:11:07 <ma1> sure henry-x , have a nice rest :)
15:11:16 <PieroV> (and on turn I'm waiting for the about:tor MR I opened last week)
15:11:30 <PieroV> tor-browser!695
15:11:36 <dan_b> so next releases are 12.5.2 as 12.5.1 got out last week, and 13.0a1 sometime, depending on things, and origionally maybe talked about later today
15:11:56 <dan_b> to we still want to do the Tor Browser Release Meeting sans richard?
15:12:29 <PieroV> 12.5.2 is around August 1
15:12:41 <PieroV> Because it should be the usual ESR update
15:13:21 <PieroV> 13.0a1 is okayish on desktop
15:13:57 <ma1> PieroV, hopefully we should get the advance draft. I'll start the backport Android bug on Thursday, and let richard finish (or take the wheel on Tuesday if they can't even if I'm officially on PTO)
15:14:07 <dan_b> android is still gonna take some time, cus this rebase needs finishing (soon), then a rebase to 115esr proper (hopefully fast) then sorting out the onboarding changes that broke launching tor (???)
15:14:30 <PieroV> We have a branch on tor-browser, and a MR on tor-browser-build. However, the MR on tor-browser-build is sorta blocked on Android. We could differentiate between desktop and Android, but I don't like the idea that much
15:14:52 <PieroV> And richard didn't want to do builds on separate versions (desktop on 115 and Android on 102)
15:15:27 <dan_b> alternatly we could do the first 13 alpha sans android if we want to get it in front of users?
15:15:48 <dan_b> I beleive that had been mentioned as a possibility
15:15:55 <dan_b> depending on pririties and timing
15:16:03 <PieroV> That's possible, and something we've done in the past
15:16:05 <ma1> yep, since it's an alpha it would be acceptable I guess
15:16:47 <Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m]> Doing the first alpha as desktop-only sounds reasonable to me, unless there are infra/build issues that would prevent doing so (which I don't think are a thing, since OS-specific releases are done fairly often?)
15:16:48 <ma1> Do alpha users expect to get timely security updates?
15:16:50 <dan_b> so I'm not sure what the priorities and timeslines are but I'm ok with that. I'll be plugging away at firefox-android for the next while regardless
15:17:06 <PieroV> So, alpha users are encouraged not to use the alpha for important stuff
15:17:39 <PieroV> And we have the stable with the security updates
15:17:40 * Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m] runs Nightly in production, but no one should follow my example, I'm a bad influence
15:18:10 <ma1> that would be a + for a 102 alpha build, but since we give the disclaimer...
15:18:15 <PieroV> A reason to wait is that we don't have many versions scheduled for 12.5.x
15:18:37 <PieroV> ma1: tbh, no alpha is better than 102-based alpha
15:18:41 <dan_b> ok so given it sounds like desktop is alpha ready, and I'd say android is over  a week away, we devs are pretty ok with this course. do we need richard or gaba sign off or anyone else?
15:18:44 <ma1> You mean to delay both desktop and android?
15:19:00 <ma1> ah, got it
15:19:06 <dan_b> either
15:19:25 <PieroV> I think we can still wait next week for the alpha
15:19:36 <PieroV> We said either late this week or next week also for MB
15:19:44 <dan_b> ok, lets see where we're at
15:19:55 <PieroV> Yep. I'll focus on build, too
15:20:01 <dan_b> we've at least established options and comfort levels for them
15:20:25 <PieroV> So you can focus on getting the bootstrap working
15:20:35 <dan_b> once the rebase is done, very yes
15:20:47 <dan_b> speaking of
15:20:51 <dan_b> for outstanding issues
15:21:02 <PieroV> I'd still do a tentative for having a 13.0a1 for all platforms a little bit later
15:21:03 <dan_b> pierov
15:21:25 <dan_b> did you get your two adequatly addressed or want to raise them now?
15:22:19 <PieroV> Not sure what you're referring to :) The need helps in the pad or my comments in the MR?
15:22:25 <dan_b> needs help
15:23:06 <PieroV> One was addressed last week (the need for additional reviewers for the Android MR), I wrote it only for the reocrd
15:23:14 <dan_b> cool
15:23:28 <PieroV> I've addressed the other one at the beginning of the meeting
15:23:47 <dan_b> splendid 👍
15:24:03 <ma1> Do alpha user get updated from latest alpha to its first stable, or are they two separate and parallel update channels?
15:24:33 <boklm> there are parallel update channels
15:24:45 <boklm> alpha users stay on alpha
15:24:47 <ma1> So  12.5a7 users jump to 13.0a1
15:24:49 <ma1> ack
15:25:03 <boklm> yes
15:25:06 <ma1> They're already out of security bugs then
15:25:15 <ma1> s/bugs/fixes
15:26:30 <boklm> hmm, yes
15:27:25 <dan_b> Did anyone else have any issues they wanted to raise?
15:27:47 <boklm> usually we did a new alpha with the firefox changes (even if no other changes) when there was a new stable
15:28:25 <dan_b> ^ so that slightly points to a 13 based alpha sooner rather than later
15:28:27 <ma1> yes, that was my next question
15:28:57 <Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m]> Just a minor note that one of my test machines (a laptop) was discovered to have a frayed power cord with exposed wires, so that machine has been taken offline pending a new power cord arriving that isn't a fire hazard, which will mildly limit my productivity this week.
15:29:12 <ma1> whether to release dummy "sec mantainance" alpha version post-stable, identical to the stable dot releases
15:29:53 <boklm> yes, I think it would be a good idea (unless we have a 115 based one coming soon)
15:31:51 <PieroV> boklm: for desktop I think we're ready also with the build changes?
15:32:01 <dan_b> if there's no garuntee of sec and a recomendation of not using it for anything important, a stable version pushed into alpha may be unexpected and uneeded extra work from us?
15:32:22 <dan_b> that we could just spend on 13 related things?
15:33:04 <dan_b> either way it sounds like we can defer the decision till next week's meeting?
15:33:10 <PieroV> Yes
15:33:13 <dan_b> cool
15:33:21 <dan_b> so i think that's all the business I can see
15:33:25 <PieroV> We should also have a release meeting sometime, either today or next Monday
15:33:39 <PieroV> (but if it's today probably we're skipping it)
15:33:43 <boklm> PieroV: yes
15:33:47 <dan_b> yes, with richard out, i'm suspecting the release meeting will prolly be next week?
15:34:04 <boklm> dan_b: that would not really be a stable version pushed into alpha, but an alpha with the same changes as stable
15:34:38 <PieroV> boklm: so, do you think it'd be worth it not to merge the Android changes of my build MR and add some code to use the old LLVM version for Android?
15:34:39 <dan_b> so we can reintroduce options prolly best in next mondays release meeting and decide then
15:35:15 <PieroV> (even though I'd expect the new LLVM to work also with 102, same for Rust 1.69 with 102.13)
15:35:40 <boklm> PieroV: yes, I think we can do that, if Android needs more time
15:36:19 <PieroV> ack, thanks
15:36:35 <dan_b> Pierov: 102 + new llvm and rust sound like a fun experiment to me tho
15:36:38 <PieroV> (ack also for Jeremy)
15:36:42 * dan_b sprinkles on a little dash of chaos
15:36:53 <ma1> :D
15:36:56 <boklm> PieroV: but I don't remember how much changes there was to LLVM, so maybe that's not easy to keep support for both at the same time
15:37:01 <PieroV> dan_b: nah, it's fine
15:37:20 <PieroV> boklm: yep, that's why I was also considering trying ESR102 + new LLVM
15:37:47 <PieroV> Maybe in nightly first. I can rebase my current MR to exclude that Android commit
15:37:59 <boklm> so ESR102 + new LLVM sounds good too
15:38:05 <dan_b> alpha to me is all about testing for our learning before stable. so i think there's more value for us in trying new build tools even with 102esr for andorid
15:38:34 <dan_b> awesome
15:38:43 <dan_b> I think that's everything then
15:38:52 <dan_b> I declare this meeting a success and closed
15:38:55 <dan_b> thanks all!
15:38:59 <Jeremy_Rand_36C3[m]> Thanks!
15:39:02 <dan_b> #endmeeting